Wed 22 Feb 2006
The article on Amherst President Marx does a good job of illustrating how radical he really is.
Since Marx, now 46, took over in 2003 as Amherst’s youngest president ever, he has waged a ceaseless crusade to make the college a leader in welcoming more lower-income students.
We are all in favor of making Amherst (and Williams) more welcoming, for rich and poor, dark purple and light purple, foreign and domestic. Yet Marx is after much more.
It’s a formidable goal considering how programmed the place is to seek out the best and the brightest: A record 6,300 students applied for just 431 spots in last fall’s entering class.
Jarring, eh? Why does a commitment for seeking out “the best and the brightest” create problems in creating a “welcoming” environment? If anything, the opposite is the case. If you have clear and objective criteria, applied to all applicants, for academic talent, then everyone should feel equal precisely because everyone is equal. Problems arise, of course, when different standards apply to different groups.
Now, Marx is challenging everything from an admissions process tilted toward affluent students to social customs that divide rich and poor students on campus. Essentially, he has set in motion a new affirmative action initiative, this time based on class rather than race.
Good luck with that! Again, I think that this is the best news for Williams in its competition with Amherst in a generation. Give them the less smart (but “poorer”) applicants. We’ll take the smarter (but “richer”) applicants. No prizes for guessing how this will turn out in a generation or two.
And what does it mean to claim that the admissions process is “tilted toward affluent students?” I don’t think it is. Does Amherst Director of Admissions Tom Parker ‘69 discriminate against poor kids? Penalize them if they apply for financial aid? Decrease their academic rank if they go to a lousy public high school?
No! People who see tilts and other injustices in elite admissions have a highly naive view of the possibilities once a student hits 17. These modern day Marxists have a (stupid) a priori belief that the abilities which lead to academic success at Amherst are uniformly distributed across the population. Alas, these abilities — high IQ, a love of learning, disciplined work habits — are very non-uniformly distributed. The children of people in the top half of the income distribution are much more likely to have these abilities than the children of people in the bottom half. This effect is magnified in the top and bottom income deciles.
Smart people have smart children because intelligence like height is largely inherited. People who love learning have children who love learning because they teach them to do the same, both directly and via example. You can bet that children who are read to by their parents each day are much more likely to end up at Amherst than children who are not so fortunate. Hard-working people have hard-working children because these parents make their children work hard, thereby teaching them the value of hard work, of ambition and striving.
Now, it turns out that high IQ, a love of learning and hard work — for shorthand, let’s call these attributes “merit” — are also correlated with wealth. Or, rather, it is unlikely that someone blessed with these three attributes will end up in the bottom 25% of the income distribution.
But people like Marx seem blind to this reality. They really want to believe that there are thousands of undiscovered gems lying in the bottom income quartile, just waiting for open-minded souls (like Marx) to discover them and, Professor Higgins-like, transform them into polished stones.
Marx already has won over many of Amherst’s largely liberal professors to the basic concept. He’s hoping that by the fall, faculty and trustees will approve a formal plan to give more of Amherst’s coveted slots, perhaps as many as 25%, to students poor enough to qualify for a Pell Grant (usually meaning a family income of less than $40,000 a year). Doing so would vault Amherst far ahead of other elite privates such as Harvard University, where 10% of undergrads are low-income. “If we are sufficiently aggressive, we will force the rest of elite higher education to be much more serious about this,” says Marx.
Delusional! There is no way that Amherst, just by letting in a group of students that it used to reject — and who used to, after rejection, go to perfectly nice albeit less competitive colleges — is going to “force” Harvard or Williams to do anything. Newsflash: As long as the students who Harvard and Williams want still go to Harvard and Williams, they won’t care what Amherst does.
Now, Amherst could change the game by being much more generous in terms of financial (read: merit) aid. For example, it could create something like the Tyng and use it to convince 50 poor students who would have gone to Harvard/Yale/Princeton/Stanford to choose Amherst instead. (Even though such students get full rides at HYPS, the allure of free graduate school would have an appeal.) If Amherst did that, HYPS might be forced to respond. Yet that is not the (public) plan
Bowen, who now heads the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation, a big funder of higher-education research, is on a crusade to win over admissions officers with statistics showing that low-income students succeed at elite colleges. “America’s most selective institutions need to put a thumb on the scale” in favor of these students, Bowen argues.
Consider the case of two students, Jane and Sarah, who attend the same high school. Both have fathers that make $40,000 a year. But one (Jane) is smarter, works harder, gets better grades and test scores than the other. Shouldn’t Jane be accepted into Amherst in preference to Sarah? Currently, she presumably is. But what if Jane has a mother who also teaches high school while Sarah’s mother is a home-maker. Since this extra income puts Jane’s family outside of Pell-grant range, should Amherst accept Sarah instead?
The only way to meaningful increase the percentage of students from the bottom 40% of the income distribution is to accept more Sarah’s and reject more Jane’s. I am almost glad that Amherst is apparently about to start doing so. It makes it all the more likely that Jane will become an Eph.
2006-02-22 08:28:13
David: Not surprisingly, I disagree with you - on two counts. First and more importantly, I believe a diminished Amherst subtlely diminishes Williams. A vigorous and competitive Amherst keeps Williams on its toes like no other factor can. Secondly, I believe that in fact there are thousands of “undiscovered gems” lying in the bottom income quartile, most probably not in the concentration of other quartiles but thousands nonetheless. This latter belief is based on my childhood, during which a vast majority of the families of the children from my “neighborhood” did not own both a home and also a car - many families neither one.
2006-02-22 12:53:02
In the article, the main problem associated with Marx is not that he is proposing more poor kids, but that he might be unintentionally threatening other priorities for Amherst, namely, preferences for athletes.
David, you constantly say that we shouldn’t accept level 4 students in lieu of richer level 2 students. Yet at Amherst, the implication is clear:
If 16% of an incoming class isn’t up to the academic standards of the rest of the class, why aren’t we focusing on that and not on socioeconomics?
Amherst is already a much more polarized place than Williams, at least six years ago. In the Pioneer Valley, a clear divide existed between the athletes and the students. I’ve always been happy that at Williams, at least, most athletes were great on the court, or in the classroom. There didn’t seem to be so much of a divide.
If the Amherst hockey teams were to fold tomorrow, and be replaced by a bunch of incredidbly gifted students who were less well off, would Amherst be a better or a worse institution? Now say the team doesn’t fold, but that it reflects a typical Division III team (i.e. not very good) and that you still have a bunch of incredibly gifted students added?
Adding top notch athletic talent helps schools like Williams go over the top to become great. But for every kid who got a tip, there’s another one warming the bench who, with the right encouragement and coaching, could become an athletic star. Perhaps coaches need to focus more on creating great athletes, and less on simply snagging raw talent. I know many kids at Williams who were incredibly athletes but didn’t get in because of it, or go on to any other sorts of athletic success.
There is a middle way.
Marx’s approach, at least, seems to be addressing that gap: if more poor smart students come in, and a few rich less-gifted athletes leave, the balance would be better for Amherst. I don’t see why that’s so radical.
2006-02-22 13:12:18
Reed,
Not that I necessarily agree with this point, but you can quite easily make an argument that Athletes are admitted for what they will [probabilistically] DO for the school; in contrast, Marx’s plan gives students a bump based on some set of factors that end up having only some small correlation with parental income — i.e., their backgrounds.
I guess the argument is, in short, that athletes add “something” to the school beyond the extent of the diversity of their backgrounds.
2006-02-22 13:17:22
why is it seen as impossible for a hockey player to both score on the ice and above a 1200 on the SAT?
2006-02-22 13:22:16
Well, one could always combine the best of both worlds and choose only those poor students who happened to be good athletes…
Oh, wait, that’s already being done. I’m sure if any coach said, “hey, there’s a guy in this high school whose parents are kind of poor, but he has a lot of talent” admissions wouldn’t care at all. So why is it different if it’s a coach versus a professor? Or athletic talent versus academic talent?
I still think that great athletes, at least on the Div III level, can be made by great coaches. Put in enough hours at the gym, watch enough film, and you can make the typical overachiever eph a contender. It’s much harder to do that with academics. That’s why I think if we reduced the overall number of athletic tips by a certain percentage, we’d still have just as many athletes at Williams (because we’re a somewhat jockish school) but we’d also gain more from the inclusion of lower-income students.
2006-02-22 13:34:49
aidan - only at Amherst! certainly not at Williams.
loweeel - let me put it a different way:
In both academics and athletics there are two groups of people who do prosper, those who work hard and put in the hours, contrasted with those for whom things come effortlessly. We can call this the hardwork/talent ratio.
At a school like Williams or Amherst, you’re always going to have a huge number of people who work hard and attempt to overachieve. But what professors and coaches really desire is a higher number of those with raw talent, the kids who just seem to grasp concepts quickly, or play in a fluid way that defies explanation. The kids to whom things come easily.
Now just as someone’s sprinting time doesn’t determine their ability to play lacrosse, so too does the SAT measure one’s ability to take a test, not grasp novel concepts and apply them.
But Williams, for better or for worse, is the premier liberal arts school in the nation. And yet it only competes in Division III in most NCAA sports. A Division I school would attract more athletes with raw talent. Here, instead, we have a larger number of athletes who have simply chosen to work themselves like mad to become good.
Reducing the number of tips to athletes, then, isn’t a zero-sum game: other Williams students have the ability to step up, work hard, and become great athletes, especially on the Division III level. On the academic side, however, we’re already full of hard-working people. We cannot expect students to become more talented simply by asking them. Bringing in more *raw talent* from a different socioeconomic background will substantially increase our supply of raw talent.
These are students who might not have scored perfectly on the SAT. Just with the 40 yard dash, though, that’s an incomplete profile of their abilities. If Williams is able to find more academic raw talent in the lower socioeconomic groups, we need to do so. And I strongly believe it will not impact our athletic ability, because of the current level we are competing at.
Ideally, imnsho, everyone at Williams would be more talented than hard-working. But then again, I’m not in charge of admissions.
2006-02-22 13:59:07
Reed,
Though I concede that the SAT is an imperfect measure of talent, I think it’s certainly more talent-weighted than grades, which depend in large measure on studying time and ability rather than talent. Grades alone cannot and do not distinguish between a student who studies 6 hours a night and a student who is naturally bright and spends his free time playing videogames because he doesn’t need to study at all.
How would you propose making admissions more talent-weighted than training-weighted?
2006-02-22 15:04:46
“Smart people have smart children because intelligence like height is largely inherited. People who love learning have children who love learning because they teach them to do the same, both directly and via example. You can bet that children who are read to by their parents each day are much more likely to end up at Amherst than children who are not so fortunate. Hard-working people have hard-working children because these parents make their children work hard, thereby teaching them the value of hard work, of ambition and striving.
Now, it turns out that high IQ, a love of learning and hard work — for shorthand, let’s call these attributes “merit” — are also correlated with wealth. Or, rather, it is unlikely that someone blessed with these three attributes will end up in the bottom 25% of the income distribution.
But people like Marx seem blind to this reality. They really want to believe that there are thousands of undiscovered gems lying in the bottom income quartile, just waiting for open-minded souls (like Marx) to discover them and, Professor Higgins-like, transform them into polished stones.”
Just needed to see that again in all its resplendent glory. Poor people are poor because of genes. These genes make them not only less smart than your average..rich…bear, but also lazier and ambitionless. Their kids, who generally don’t have anything to do with their parent’s poverty (and therefore didn’t as much “end up in the bottom 25%” as start there), are subpar and un-saveable at birth. Doesn’t explain all the rich kids that I’ve met in my life who didn’t capitalize on the wealth of time and opportunities that they had– the intelligence, work ethic and ambition must have been simmering underneath the “couldn’t give a rat’s ass” exterior. But surely explains my up from poverty colleagues and friends and our success in comparison to those same overprivileged kids (yes, even on those standarized tests that “perfectly” measure our potential).
2006-02-22 15:18:18
Ephgal,
I had thought it was obvious, but I allow me to be clear: I was speaking probabilistically. The things that I claimed are true in average. They are not true for every individual. And, fortunately, the Williams Admissions office does not need to rely on averages. They can (and do) look at each applicant as an individual, judge her on her own merits, and accept/reject accordingly.
I am just arguing against people like Marx (and you?) who seem to assume that the current system is making systematic mistakes, that it is somehow rejecting students that would do better at Williams (after catch-up) time than the students it currently accepts. I do not think that is true.
Now, if one is naive about the way that tall people have tall children, one might curse the unfairness whereby the only 5% of the NBA have fathers in the bottom 25% of the height distribution in this country. What unfairness causes this outcome? Does the basketball system of summer camps, high school feeder schools and Div 1 programs discriminate against the children of short fathers?
Unlikely. Having a tall parents is more likely to get you into the NBA (or into a Div 1 basketball program) not because anyone discriminates (to a meaningful extent) against people with short parents. It just happens that both nature (height is genetic) and nurture (tall parents are probably more likely to have played basketball and therefore more like to point their children, of whatever height, in that direction) conspire to cause the children of tall parents to be overrepresented.
The exact same mechanisms are at work in explaining why the children of rich people are overrepresented at Williams and Amherst.
I am not claiming that these mechanisms are just or unjust. I am just explaining how the world works.
2006-02-22 15:54:29
loweeel - I think it’s quite easy to find people who are talented. A ten minute interview should suffice to establish whether a student is one who works hard or hardly works to achieve their goals. (Hint: the talented one is the latter! Hint #2: this doesn’t apply to kids getting cushy jobs from Dad or having a trust fund!)
David - your rejoinder that “this is how the world works” is familiar to those of us south of the Mason-Dixon line. The point is, and remains, that if we had a choice to equal the playing field, to give a poor kid a better chance than his richer brethren, we would. I suspect that, all things being equal, you would consider that somehow unjust.
But if Poor Bob and Rich Dan both apply to Williams, and Poor Bob (he of the substandard 100 point less SAT score, that is!) gets in, and Rich Dan does not, Rich Dan can pack his bags and go to Amherst, or Middlebury, or Dartmouth, or Swarthmore. Poor Bob cannot, because he doesn’t have those opportunities.
Adding students from impoverished backgrounds is not some pie-in-the-sky “we’ll feel good later” deal. It will materially make Williams a better place. Can you imagine future generations of ephs emerging from the purple bubble with a strong desire to give back to their community? To be a role model for their family, their town, their friends? Perhaps to aspire to shake up the system a bit?
Let Amherst and the rest take the privileged elite who haven’t had to work for anything in their life.
I’d like to see Williams become the school it can be: full of hard-working, extremely talented individuals who are capable of overcoming not only challenges in the classroom and the sports field, but also those of real life. That’s the Williams I want to see.
2006-02-22 15:58:52
David:
Your theory falls apart when you compare Williams to MIT — a school that is more difficult (from an admissions and academic standpoint), yet has a much broader socio-ec distribution among its students.
What Marx is arguing (quite correctly) is that schools like Amherst have, for a century or more, systematically excluded non-wealthy students in their sales, marketing, and admissions policies. And, furthermore, that it would be beneficial to the college and its students to have more socio-economic diversity.
2006-02-22 16:24:57
1) I would like to see the evidence that MIT has “much broader” socio-ec diversity. (Note that I am assuming that the only socio-ec diversity that we care about it as the lower end.) This may be true, but, if it is, I am happy to start accepting more of those MIT students and doing whatever is necessary to get them to attend. Marx, on the other hand, is advocating admitting students that MIT currently rejects.
2) Reed writes:
Give me a break! You think that Poor Bob — and the other 50 or so applicants that are right on the cusp of admissions but get rejected right now — are what? Not going to go to college? Just going to start digging ditches? Don’t be ridiculous.
These highly accomplished students will just go to some other school. Not a school, it is true, as elite at Williams, but something just one step below the academic ladder.
3) For the record, I think that Reed and I (and others) are largely in agreement over the excess emphasis that is placed on athletic stardom. But, to keep this discussion focused, let’s not compare poor kids with hockey players. (Assume either that tips have ended or that the trustees have ruled tips sacrosanct.
Instead, consider the trade-offs like the ones I outlined. Those are the ones that would actually be made if Williams took a few steps in this direction.
2006-02-22 16:38:48
Reed: I think it’s quite easy to find people who are talented. A ten minute interview should suffice to establish whether a student is one who works hard or hardly works to achieve their goals. (Hint: the talented one is the latter! Hint #2: this doesn’t apply to kids getting cushy jobs from Dad or having a trust fund!)
I would have loved that, as I was one of those “never needed to study at all” kids, but at a very difficult private school while playing 2 varsity sports… (No wonder admissions liked me). However, it did not serve me well when I got to college, particularly in Math and Physics where other kids knew how to study for exams and I was just struggling to tread water.
Dave: [I] am happy to start accepting more of those MIT students and doing whatever is necessary to get them to attend.
Like, oh, say, having engineering, ala Swarthmore?
While I have no evidence whatsoever to back this up, my intuition is that students from poorer backgrounds are, all else being equal more likely to seek future financial security in more applied fields like science or engineering rather than taking the calculated risk of more of a traditional liberal arts major.
2006-02-22 17:18:21
These stats are all from the 2004/05 schoolyear as reported to USNEWS.
Percent of students paying full sticker price:
MIT: 36%
Amherst: 54%
Williams: 58%
Percent of students qualifying for Pell Grants (typically below $40k per year income):
MIT: 14%
Amherst: 15%
Williams: 10%
Percent of non-white or non-US students:
MIT: 54%
Amherst: 35%
Williams: 33%
2006-02-22 19:12:16
Reed writes:
I still think that great athletes, at least on the Div III level, can be made by great coaches. Put in enough hours at the gym, watch enough film, and you can make the typical overachiever eph a contender. It’s much harder to do that with academics. That’s why I think if we reduced the overall number of athletic tips by a certain percentage, we’d still have just as many athletes at Williams (because we’re a somewhat jockish school) but we’d also gain more from the inclusion of lower-income students.
I can’t possibly disagree with this more. Tipped athletes work hard to get where they are, but you can’t just say its hard work, even on the D3 level. Size and speed are such huge parts of sports, that unless you are gifted genetically, there are limits to your ability to compete. Not to mention the years of experience that cannot be taught. I could train as a distance runner for years and I would never be competitive. Just as no matter how much work you put in your 4 years you would never be able to adequatly rush the qb. No amount of coaching can overcome genetics.
Grade inflation makes anyone able to compete academically. If you actually go to class, do all the reading and study for tests you a pretty much getting B’s minimum. Especially in non-quantitative majors.
Had to address that now I’ll get back on topic.
Why wouldn’t you want one of the students that can get by without putting in the work? If someone spends 5 hours studying to get good grades and the other can get good grades in an hour, I want the guy who only works an hour. His or her ceiling is much higher then the hard worker. I thought this was the goal of the SAT, to seperate students where grades fail. Same reason pitchers who throw 95 get drafted before the guy who throws 85.
2006-02-22 20:05:12
hwc,
Is that the best that you can do for your claim that MIT has “much broader” socio-ec diversity? Come on! This is, perhaps, evidence for “slightly” broader or “somewhat” broader, but not “much”. As to your three pieces of evidence.
3) We are talking about socio-ec not race, so why is the lack of Asians/international students relevant? (I do not think that MIT has a meaningfully higher percentage of URMs.) This is a separate issue, on which you and I probably agree.
1) Paying full sticker price is a hazy sign of socio-ec diversity, at best; this is especially true in a world in which families with income up to $190k are getting financial aid at Williams. No one cares if the ratio of $250k to $100k families is higher at Williams than at MIT (as it might well be). Income at these levels is simply irrelevant to anything that goes on in the classroom.
2) Your only relevant datapoint is the proportion of Pell Grants. I agree that this is a useful measure. Socio-ec diversity is only a useful goal at the low end. But, “broader” is not the same as “4% more.” Is it your claim that if Williams had just 20 students more per class (one every other entry) qualifying for Pell Grants it would matter much one way or the other? I just don’t think that these numbers matter much.
Note also the key issue of measurement error. For example, are non-US students counted in the category of those eligible for Pell Grants. They aren’t (no matter how poor they are, I think) so the difference between MIT and Williams on this measure might be largely accounted for by the difference in foreign enrollments. In other words, given the difficulty in measurements, we can’t even be sure that MIT really has a higher percentage of poor students, at least among its US students.
Finally, even in the utopia of a perfect world in which admissions are flawless and college is free and every admitted student gets a personal tour of Williams from Morty, I would still expect a higher percentage of poor students to pick MIT over Williams because of the reasons that Lowell mentions. In fact, I could easily imagine that difference being 4%.
So, there may be a case that elite schools in general admit/enroll fewer poor students than they “should.” There is no data that I am aware of that shows that Williams is an outlier in this regard as compared to peer schools. Indeed, given need blind financial aid for international students and increased use of Questbridge, I would expect that the percentage of all students from families making less than $40,000 per year is higher at Williams than at most (almost all?) NESCAC schools.
2006-02-22 20:58:25
I was also going to make the point that people from poorer backgrounds are less likely to choose the liberal arts, until I read Diana’s point that most students from Exeter, many of whom are rich, don’t choose the liberal arts either!
Somehow this had not occurred to me before, even though it should have. (I went to Lawrenceville and am reasonably familiar with its numbers.)
On the general discussion - I believe that the expected value of my education would be higher if Williams had replaced 30 people in my incoming class with students from poorer families and with slightly lower SAT scores, even accounting for the 6% chance that one of those 30 people not admitted would be me.
In the end, this is what it boils down to.
2006-02-22 21:12:08
I’m not going to go into where the discussion so far has gone, as it seems to retrace its own steps a decent amount, and when it doesn’t do that, mimic many earlier threads (this is not an attack on any of the posters. all of whom have been impressively eloquent, this is more to point out ephblog’s obsessive nature of focusing on, hmm…how to put this nicely…either agreeing or disagreeing with David’s economics understanding of social structures)
I’ll keep my (also rehashing arguments I’ve made numerous times) comments brief (side note: after writing, that’s obviously not true. In fact, whenever I use the word “brief”, that seems to indicate “longer than normal”). First, why do we at ephblog have two threads on the president of a rival? that seems odd…and like David has a bone to pick with Tony Marx. This second seems especially weakly connected to williams. (i know, everytime someone brings something like this up, the discussion only goes downhill. it’s like ephblog’s own goodwin’s law)
Second, in this case David attacks Marx for the wording decisions of a business week writer. Marx in no way said to stop looking for best and brightest, those were the words of a writer. Marx instead is arguing that Amherst could accept more low-income students and Amherst could continue to be a world class university. He is arguing that the current concept of “best and brightest” is not necessarily the true concept of “best and brightest”. that’s a very reasonable statement considering the subjectivity of the admissions process.
David and I agree that a widely known completely objective admissions system is ideal. David seems to believe we are somewhere near that. I find that idea laughable on its face. Not only are schools like Amherst and Williams not widely known, not only are there tons of costs involved in these schools (and not only because a lot of poor potential students have no idea how financial aid works), but wealth in society begets tons of opportunities for the wealthy. This then makes any seemingly objective measurement non-objective without creating some sort of bias due to biases not necessarily inherent in the measurement, but in the environment said measurement is in.
two last critiques. First, the Sarah and Jane comparison is too oversimplified. Second, the idea that hard working is found disproportionately in the wealthy is not only not based in any social science I’ve read (that wasn’t written before 1970 and sicne disproven), it also not only sounds like “blaming the victim(’s family)” but a classic “culture of poverty” argument (for those not sociologists, that’s basically our shorthand way of saying someone’s just completely wrong in how they are speaking about class).
Let’s look at the numbers again. Amherst has 431 slots. 25% is roughly 107 students. They currently have 10%, so that’s more like 64 new enrolling students. Let’s say 1/3 of the poor students Amherst accepts go to Amherst. so, David, what you are saying is that it is unreasonable for Amherst to expect to be able to find in the entire US population entering college 192 poor students worthy of a spot that it currently does not accept. I think the much more reasonable assumption is that it can and should do so, but it would require an effort currently not underway anywhere but Amherst. They deserve applause and support, not attacks on a blog.
2006-02-22 21:14:52
I notice my attempt to not-critique earlier posters didn’t quite come out like I would want. Rather, I just wanted to say that I’m not getting into any of the stuff from the comments because they’ve all been adequately explained without me repeating what others said in more elegant presentations.
damn four hours of class…ruins my sense of how to be socialable even on a discussion board…
2006-02-22 21:22:06
…and my ability to spell “sociable” as well. I give up. I will now watch TV while reading phdcomics.com and stop clogging this thread.
2006-02-22 21:31:09
Rory writes:
I guess it depends on what you mean by “near that.” List the policy changes that you would make to ensure that Williams gets more applications. Perhaps you think we should send admissions officers to more schools. Perhaps you want to spend more money on Questbridge. Whatever. I do not think that these efforts will be particularly fruitful, but I am happy to do so because they aren’t expensive. So, we can agree on maximizing efforts to increase the pool (as well as efforts to convince admitted applicants to enroll).
In fact, I am probably more radical than most in this regard in that I would be eager to use merit aid to convince some inner city kid with 1500 SATs to come to Williams. His family needs money so, besides giving him a Tyng, Williams should give his family $20k per year in cash, perhaps to make up for the income that the kid would have earned at some job.
But, where we disagree is, conditional on the pool , who Williams should admit. In particular, I see no reason to admit a “poor” AR 3 in place of a “rich” AR 1 because I place such a high value on intellectual talent and ability. Note, especially, that being an AR 1 is not depended on being at a rich school. If you are the valedictorian at some lousy school, take the 1 or 2 AP courses offered and score well on your standardized tests, you are an AR 1. You do not need to go to Exeter.
I want Williams to have more AR 1s and fewer non-AR 1s. One way to do this is lift the quota on international students. Another way is to decrease the number of tips. A third way is to decrease the amount of affirmative action for URMs. A fourth way is to avoid going down the path that Marx suggests.
Rory (and others) feel differently, that Williams might reject some rich 1s and replace them with poor 3s. I agree that this might be true, if the 3s were really poorer in a meaningful way than the 1s. But I do not think that would happen. I think that it is very hard for Williams to know who is really poor. I think that the potential for gaming the system is too high.
But the magnitude of this problem is an empirical one that I hope we will explore in more detail.
2006-02-22 21:39:02
Alex Woo writes:
Ah, but this is not the choice we have. Williams and Amherst already give X amount of benefit to low socio-ec. Students with this tag already have (more than?) slightly lower SAT scores than their peers. In order to meaningful increase the numbers of “poor” students, you need to enter the realm of the sort of differences (150 points) commonly associated with URMs and helmet sport athletes. Is that a difference you are comfortable with?
Moreover, let’s also be clear on what we mean by “poor.” For the most part, Williams is going nowhere near the bottom 10% or even 25% of the income distribution. It already finds a few students there and might find a couple more, but to get real numbers of >1300 SAT students who are at least below median family income, the big numbers will be found in the 50th to 25th percentiles of income, students going to average public schools, with parents working in low white color jobs. How different is the perspective of someone whose parents make $40k from someone whose parents make $80k? Not different enough to make a meaningful difference in a Williams classroom.
Alex might be reasonable to make the trade-off if we were talking about “paying” 50 to 100 SAT points to get students from the bottom quintile. But that trade is not available.
2006-02-22 21:50:00
Rory writes:
No! Or rather, it depends on what you mean by “find” and “poor” and “worthy”.
With regard to poor, I am to have Amherst and Williams search however you see fit. You act as if they are not looking, as if people like, say, Gina Coleman in the admissions office don’t travel the country looking for poor but smart students. They already do this; Questbridge helps them. But, unless you think that they and Questbridge are lazy and stupid, you need to come to grips with the fact that there are not thousands and thousands of students to find.
With regard to “poor”, I am happy to count as poor someone in the bottom 20%. I could imagine such students adding a useful perspective in just the same way as a URM might. But I do not think that the 20th to 50th percentile should count as poor, nor do I think that such applicants are different enough from applicants in the 50th to 80th percentile to merit much of a preference. I think, in fact, that the typical public high school in this country has students whose family income ranges from 20th to 80th (certainly my town of Newton, MA (cited above by HWC) does.
With regard to “worthy,” I do not see why this is relevant to the discussion. I am happy to grant that all applicants are worthy. But it is a zero sum game and there are only so many spots.
Tell me which AR 1s you want to get rid of to make room more more AR 3s.
2006-02-22 22:15:38
I am comfortable with any difference in academic ability as long as it doesn’t leave these students struggling so much with their academic work or feeling so intellectually out of place that they are unable to interact socially with other students.
I am not really that interested in how much they would have educated me in the classroom. I am more interested in how much they would have educated me in our conversations in dorms and dining halls.
Actually, i think there is quite a big difference in perspective between students with parents make $80k and parents making $40k. Maybe not as much as the difference between $40k and $20k, but still significant. (Caveat: I have spent all my time since Williams in places where the cost of living is high.)
2006-02-23 00:02:43
you’ve set up strawmen against me David!
I do not need to replace a single AR 1 necessarily. I can replace the tipped athletes that aren’t AR 1, the legacies who aren’t AR 1, etc. and be very close to my goal. but that’s not my issue.
AR ratings are not necessarily adaptable to student academic experiences. For example, a school may have 10 APs offered in its prospectus, but it doesn’t mention that 7 of those APs are capped because of the school’s lack of resource (so I might have wanted to take 5, but I only got into 2 or 3). And your guidance counselor has 200-300 students in his/her docket and has never heard of Williams and spends more of his/her time working with the students who are academically at risk. So s/he doesn’t know to spend time writing a good recommendation (nor is s/he necessarily a good writer) nor does s/he mention the AP limitations. And now, instead of taking the hardest courses you could in Williams’ eyes, you took some average courseload. And because you don’t know anything about the admissions process, you don’t know to tell Williams about that problem either.
Or, to bring it closer to my life. A friend went to Texas Lutheran, he was valedictorian of his class, desperately wanted to get out of his hometown and is truly intelligent and a diligent worker. He didn’t know a thing about a school except for his state school and the state school in the states around him. Texas Lutheran, somehow, found him and gave him a good financial aid package. I’m sure Williams could have matched it, but he had never heard of it. He’s now in a prestigious ph.d program. he would have been a brilliant addition to Williams. Other such anecdotes exist all over the country.
Nor am I attacking the admissions office, especially not Gina, who does an amazing job. But is there an institutional mandate like at Amherst to change their ways? I doubt it.
As Morty likes to point out, the students who go to Xavier would have had a tough time getting into Williams, yet they certainly succeed afterward as well as students from the most prestigious schools. Outcome-wise, going to a top top school is not a significant factor in future monetary earnings (if we had all gone to our state schools, we’d have risen to the top according to the numbers). There are gaps not only in our recruitment (people, especially first generation students do not know where Williams is and how good it is), but in the program at Williams. Is Williams really a welcoming place to poor students? I don’t know, but I think a lot of students would be very apprehensive about the place because of its culture and environs. Can williams do something about that? definitely.
Nor did I attack Questbridge. Questbridge is an interesting program that does great things. So are programs like Prep for Prep, Steppingstone, etc. But these, and anything one college does by itself are drops in a bucket. Instead, somebody in a position of power (say, the President of an elite institution…) needs to lead by word and example (say, by setting a goal of 25% and doing a lot to achieve it).
There are tons of missed opportunities for Williams to find outstanding applicants. For example, 50% of the entering college students every year are older than 21. I don’t think Williams gets many of those students, often those students are from poorer backgrounds. Schools such as Smith have programs specifically geared towards these students. How many students does Williams get from community colleges?
There’s a good book called “Choosing Colleges” by Patricia McDonough looking at how the cultural expectations of a school impact a students’ college applications decisions. And, surprise surprise, it mattered. And students with the same GPAs from a poor school went to community college, while a wealthier public school sent its kids to Cal State schools (the case study was in california) and the private school sent its kids to U Cals.
Williams could create a feeder program for low-income students that gives them two summers of Williams-style tutorials and if they’re successful at the program, they get in to williams.
There are a lot of people who have the genetics that give them an opportunity to succeed. Some of them fulfill that promise and are identified by Williams, others are not. Still more are failed by society well before college. As an institution of resources and education, Williams has an opportunity, and I would argue because of that a duty, to not only identify more students, but also help society stop failing so many of them.
So yes, there are tons of things that can be done. they require two things however:
-a different definition of merit
-a whole lot of resources
merit aid is not radical in my opinion. Merit aid’s goal is to take a student from one school and bring them to your own. Expanding the pool, changing the definition of “merit”, those are radical.
It seems Tony Marx is doing that. And you’re attacking him. and on a williams blog…
2006-02-23 01:21:42
Rory:
And students with the same GPAs from a poor school went to community college, while a wealthier public school sent its kids to Cal State schools (the case study was in california) and the private school sent its kids to U Cals.
The GPA information, in and of itself, isn’t particularly useful, let alone statistically significant. We don’t know whether the GPA similarity says anything about the students’ abilities being equal. Or whether the students with highest GPAs took the hardest classes their schools had to offer. We don’t even know if the GPAs had the same scale! “Naked GPA” is only a useful comparison against other students who went to the same school and took roughly similar courseloads.
We don’t know if some students chose the cal states over the cals because of other factors, like really nice merit-based scholarship offers, or honors tracks. I know that many of the UCals offer substantial merit programs, like Regent’s scholars, that offer significant financial and academic advantages far. I can only assume that the CalState schools have an analogous program.
I am not disputing that your friend may very well be quite brilliant and in retrospect have added immeasurably to Williams. However, you’re failing to distinguish between ex ante and ex post — you’re confusing foresight and hindsight. Hindsight, at its best, is 20/20. Just as in tort law, the problem that every occurrence is “reasonably foreseeable” after it has happened makes ! There’s a massive amount of literature in cognitive psychology about the pervasivity and dangers of hindsight bias.
The problem, particularly in the context of college admissions is, what is the best way and most accurate way to identify the best students beforehand? There is no way to know who will blossom in college and who will tank, going only on individualized assessment. Beforehand, the best you can do is make probabilistic guesses based on measurement metrics. The ones that colleges have typically used are high school quality, grades, difficulty of schedule/coursework, and standardized test scores, and while they cannot be perfect, they seem to do a pretty good job. One of the selling points of questbridge is that it increases the accuracy of the admissions office’s information about otherwise risky admits.
Thus, the question is NOT whether your friend panned out as brilliant during or after college, because there is no way to know that beforehand. The question is, based on whatever sorting metric you choose to use to identify talent, what is the expectation talent value of a prospective student? (at a first order approximation, the probability of a prospective admit panning out times the extent to which he/she pans out)
2006-02-23 12:40:10
Respones to Rory:
It is helpful to keep this discussion away from tips for now, especially since you and I agree that athletic ability should play less of role. But, even with that, there are still 300+ AR 1s that Williams currently rejects. So, even if you can get rid of a tip, you have a choice of replacing her with a “rich” AR1 or a “poor” AR3. You can have one or the other but not both. Admissions are zero sum.
Note also that it is unhelpful to include legacies in this discussion since, below AR2, legacies get no help.
Says who? Are you claiming that people like Gina Coleman don’t know what they are doing, even after years of experience? That they can’t adjust for different school qualities, class selections and so on? I disagree? I think that when Gina says that someone is an AR1, we can expect, on average, that person to do very well academically in his last two years at Williams. Similarly, when Gina tells me that someone is an AR3 or AR4, I expect that this person will do much less well.
Again, we are talking averages. Some AR3’s become Phi Beta Kappa. Some AR1’s fail out. But, on average, the top of the class — even during senior year after everyone has had three years to catch up — is dominated by AR1s and the bottom of the class by AR4s and below.
If you have some magic formula that will allow Gina to do this job even better, to reclassify AR3s and AR1s because there is something about them that you can see now, then you should tell her. She would like to know!
You’re (somewhat) wrong. Williams is emphasizing socio-ec diversity more than it did five years ago. It is reducing loan requirements for poor students. It is spending meaningful money on Questbridge. The commitment is nothing at the level of Amherst’s. One of my goals is to keep it that way.
You argue for “a different definition of merit.” Please provide one. For me, Academic Rank — the Admissions Office best estimate of who is going to thrive and achieve academically in their final two years at Williams — is that definition. If it were up to me, we would just take all the AR1s and AR2s and stop there.
2006-02-23 15:15:46
Well, this whole conversation may end up being a tempest in a teapot. There is an article in the Amherst student paper this week which basically says that the Newsweek story was a big exaggeration and that Marx did not intend to go nearly as far as the article made it sound like.
2006-02-23 15:55:41
Jeff, that is interesting news! The Amherst student newspaper is acting as the spinmeister for the Amherst President?
2006-02-23 16:25:11
Just read an article in The Amherst Student, which appears to be the above referenced one, and the article certainly reads as if President Marx is using that publication to explain himself (and possibly to alter what he previously has communicated). My guess is that the BusinessWeek article has produced an unanticipated fire storm of some not inconsiderable size on campus and perhaps off campus and that the President is attempting to dampen it while at the same time looking relaxed. One can identify the pioneers - they are the ones with the arrows protruding from them.
2006-02-23 16:59:33
Here is the article. Two key quotes from Marx:
How stupid does Marx think that Amherst students/alumni are? If you think that hockey players and Asian American non-athletes and African American legacies face the “same standards,’ you are an idiot.
Agreed.
2006-02-23 17:36:46
David: Are you surprised or shocked or angered when a person, a large component of whose job is politics, speaks as if he were a politician?