Wed 31 Jan 2007
A question-and-answer on College Confidential.
I heard Williams College gives admissions “bumps” to local students, from the Berkshire County area. If this is the case, how significant is this bump?
…
Residents of the Berkshires get a very substantial boost in the admissions process at Williams. The “bump” that you will receive is equivalent to that of a legacy or a recruited athlete.
That answer comes from MikeyD223, a knowledgeable participant at CC. However, I have some doubts.
1) The boost from being a legacy is nowhere near that provided recruited (i.e., “tipped”) athletes. Being a legacy is probably worth about 50 SAT points. Being a tip is worth twice as much and probably even more. In essence, if a coach really wants you, and you meet some (high) academic minimums, you get in. The coach is directly involved in the process, communicating explicitly with he alumni office. Legacy families don’t get nearly this much influence and access.
2) To the extent that there is a boost from being a “Berkshire” resident, I think that much/most/all of the boost comes from a direct Williams connection. Williams accepts many children of faculty and staff, not so much because they grew up in Williamstown as because Williams looks after its own. Do you think that Dick Nesbitt wants to tell Professor X or Administrator Y (cross reference the faculty/staff listings with the student directory for examples) that her little lovely isn’t good enough for Williams? No. Of course, Nesbitt does need to reject some/many applicants from faculty/staff families, but he doesn’t want to do it unless he has to. See Daniel Golden’s The Price of Admission for more details from across the country about this practice.
3) I do not think that a random applicant from, say, Adams gets much of a preference. Does anyone disagree? Why would the College admit such a student while rejecting an applicant from, say, Pennsylvania with a stronger application?
January 31st, 2007 at 1:25 pm
re: 3) it’s part of the idea that the college has an “obligation to the community” rather than to its students and faculty.
January 31st, 2007 at 1:42 pm
In the words of immortal Milton Friedman, “the social responsibility of business is to increase its profits.” Can we make some analogy here?
January 31st, 2007 at 2:11 pm
Sure we can, anon! The missing piece of the puzzle is that the social responsibility of business is to increase profits, because the profits (in the form of dividends and stock valuation) are the social responsibility of the shareholders. The corporation has a fiduciary duty to its owners, analogous to the one that applies to partners in a partnership, if not (arguably) stronger due to the unequal access and knowledge of those operating the business.
The situation with higher education is somewhat more complicated, because it has no “owners” per se. Regardless of to whom the college owes a fiduciary duty, it’s pretty clear that the community as a whole and the region are not those to whom the a college owes its highest obligations.
January 31st, 2007 at 2:15 pm
In the past, certainly, selective colleges gave a bit of a bump for being a professor’s kid from any college. In the 50s, 60s, and 70s, professors didn’t make a lot, and getting a bump was considered a perk. (Similar to the way the networks give airtime to memorialize reporters who died — you’re part of the club.) In addition, faculty brats have smart parents and understand the college atmosphere, so it’s assumed they’ll have an easier adjustment than others.
January 31st, 2007 at 2:18 pm
I like the idea of a small (akin to child of alumni) boost for local applicants. First, local high school grads can provide a different perspective to other students via their familiarity with the Berkshires as something more than just a place to hang out for four years then come back to at reunions … helps to create a connection between the college and its community context. Also may be able to create ties between other students and community enterprises or institutions. And the policy works in the other direction as well. For example, I saw recently that Mt. Greylock’s football star will be attending (and presumably playing for) Williams next year (not meaning to imply that he got any boost, by the way, as of course I have no idea). This will likely create more community interest in and affection for the college. In some ways, a local perspective on Williams and its relationship with the community is just as valuable as a very foreign perspective. It’s only us ubiquitous suburban Jersey types who add very little of interest (beyond the sheer force of our personality, of course).
January 31st, 2007 at 2:30 pm
Martha Coakley ‘75, the new Attorney General of Massachusetts, was from North Adams, as was another classmate of mine. I think being local guarantees a hard look from the college; I’m not sure how much of a boost — or demotion — it gives an applicant.
I remember a comment Morty Shapiro made early in his administration, where he talked about several decades of discrimination in hiring Williams graduates as professors. It’s true — after hiring a lot of Williams graduates as professors through the 1950s, Williams worked to hire professors from elsewhere to “even things out.” Morty’s comment was, “Look, our graduates are often great teachers, because they had great role models. Let’s not give them an artificial boost, but let’s also not discriminate against them. If a great teacher is also a Williams graduate, under my administration that’s OK.”
January 31st, 2007 at 2:58 pm
I disagree that children of faculty and staff get all that much of a boost - but people in the know tell me that going to a local (Berkshire area) high school does definitely help.
January 31st, 2007 at 3:49 pm
One hand washes the other - in ways often subtle.
January 31st, 2007 at 5:18 pm
Dudes..what the hell is wrong with admitting a dirty townie?
Good god men!!
January 31st, 2007 at 5:18 pm
oh… the above from PTC of course… the townie blogger.
January 31st, 2007 at 5:24 pm
And on a serious note… Williamstown has a lot of really bright young men and women who live there, that end up at many different institutions of their choice after high school.
There is a boost, however, I believe, a very small one, but it exists… which is a good thing in my mind.
January 31st, 2007 at 5:32 pm
• Counterpoint to David’s claim about facbrat tips
• Defense of local tips
• Possible significance to international quota
Dave, you know that checking any list to see how many current students are related to Williams profs tells us nothing. That directory reflects yield — those who chose to attend — not those admitted.
Even leaving aside the fact that someone with a relative on the staff might be more likely to attend if accepted, it’s quite reasonable to expect kids of professors to be more likely than many segments of the population to grow into very qualified 18-year-olds. I think students who babysit for the profs can chime in here and tell you how incredibly bright they tend to be, and any theory you favor of how intelligence is transmitted — genes? nurture? a mix? — would predict as much.
Of course, as David is fond of saying, this is a testable hypothesis. We could somehow get independent assessment data — that’s the ever-popular SATs and other pieces of the admissions portfolio — and see how the admitted-prof-kids group does versus others. There’s going to be a big sample-size problem, I bet, because there just aren’t that many facbrat candidates every year. But if you could clear it, I’d put my money on little to no significant difference.
Wise use of a preference for local applicants is fine by me. Unless you really do want to be an ivory tower, an island in the larger community, you’ll want to actively tend your ties to the indirectly associated people around you. Without affecting admissions, Williams can do this by opening programs to the public, hiring locals, etc., but there’s only one way to bring the community into the central mission of the College. That’s to teach them.
I believe the above, but it’s not why I support watching over our local yield. I think every non-profit benefits from remaining not just in but of the society around it. Williams relies heavily on its position in the Purple Valley, the Mountains. Our songs and pride in that would be oddly hollow if it didn’t come with the connection to the people and culture of the area you’d expect. Our history has that, and always having a critical presence of people of the local culture is crucial to our future having it as well. If our college is shaped by its students, we need locally raised people to be some of those shapers.
All these, by the way, are kindred reasons for why I would not favor Williams becoming a demographic reflection of the world’s best rather than the country’s best, as David argues it ought to be when he opposes the international students quota. And, by giving importance to being connected to the local area, I express some comfort with Williams’ being an imperfect reflection of the whole country’s best as well.
January 31st, 2007 at 5:46 pm
Well put, Jon. The Mountains are far more important and meaningful for residents of North Adams, Adams, Williamstown, etc., than they are for Williams students. They are the background of life not for four years, but for generations beyond that. I saw a lot of respect for Williams during the two years I worked in North Adams, Adams, Cheshire, etc., and got a really palpable sense of pride and ownership from anyone who knew or could tell me about a local kid going to the local school. I don’t believe this to necessarily be a given, and I think Williams’ administration (not its students, really) does a pretty solid job reaching out to communities and individuals beyond its own staff and immediate circles. Again, given that I’m coming from the exact opposite perspective of the people’s reaction I’m describing, I could be wrong about this, but that was the sense I had.
January 31st, 2007 at 6:46 pm
Ben- I am a townie. I can tell you that the relationship at the ground level has been strained in the last decade, to the point where it has become more of a monopoly than a relationship. Let me mention two major things indicative of this collapse.
First, the hiring practices of the college. Williams has gotten much more buisness like in its hiring practices. The major working class departments of buildings and grounds and food services, do a lot more part time hiring, have lower wages, cost cutting measures etc. Things that reflect the current climate for the working poor all across the country. This has an obvious effect.
The second is the the way in which Williams has developed the town. In the last decade, major develpoments which lack perspective and any sense of understanding of the landscape have defied any sense of balance. That too, is indicitive of the state of our union. It reflects the absurd and rather brass way in which the wealthy have cut their ties with the people and landscape around them, and subjigated the nation to a class system through corrupt politics and a global economy. I would point to Jim Webbs (Democrats) response to the State of the Union.
In short, Williams is struggling now more than ever to keep its connection to the town. A sense of balance with the landscape and the local community has been lost. Most of the working poor who work for Williams, no longer live in Williamstown. As stated, all of this pressure is a microcosm of the lager American demographic. Anything the college can do to help locals,with things like scholarships… helps. A complete review is needed, really… if Williams is going to keep any sense of identity with landscape and locals.
January 31st, 2007 at 7:17 pm
Hey PTC.
Some interesting, and fairly strong claims. Can you enrich the offering with any description of how you came to feel that what you express is the town consensus? Can you recall any anecdotes, discussions with friends, in which such sentiments were expressed? Primary source info like this is always the most interesting.
And can you speak at all to whether the many other ways the College makes offerings to the community do anything to help the relationship? If anything, what do you particularly value about the college besides its footprint and full-time positions?
January 31st, 2007 at 7:39 pm
From a (former) student standpoint, you’d definitely want the college to be business-like in its hiring and firing practices. Businesses adopted business-like procedures for a very good reason — they work. The college has an obligation to do the best job it can for its students and faculty; if business-like hiring practices mean that there are more people around to answer student and faculty concerns at more hours AND save money at the same time, it’s almost an obligation for the college to do that. It is NOT the college’s job to employ people in the surrounding community, and even less so to pay them a so-called “living wage”.
Though I do find PTC’s claims that the wealth have “subjigated [sic.] the nation to a class system through corrupt politics and a global economy” to be barely comprehensible and ridiculous at the same time, premised on a fundamental misunderstanding of the distinction between public and private. Citing the barely literate response delivered by the economically illiterate populist Jim Webb can only further undermine his already strained exaggerations.
January 31st, 2007 at 7:51 pm
As for “working poor” unable to live in Williamstown, the blame is not with the college. PTC should be yelling at the fellow townies on the zoning board, and to a lesser extent, the summer folks who have a seasonal home in the area to attend the theater festival.
Moreover, PTC provides no evidence beyond naked assertion that a significant number of “working poor” lived in Williamstown in the not-too-distant past, let alone that they were driven out by the college or any of the College’s actions, rather than the continued collapse of the industry in North Adams (cf. Middletown CT and Poughkeepsie NY for similar examples of rusting manufacturing towns), and to a lesser extent, Pittsfield.
Furthermore, I am not particularly inclined to be charitable to claims of “The college needs to do more for the town.” The college does a HELL of a lot for the town just by being there, and I doubt that Williamstown would be anything other than a smaller and shabbier Pownal if not for the college. Who would frequent the stores on Spring Street and along Route 2? Would Stop’n'Shop or the post office be nearly so large without the students and faculty shopping there or receiving all that mail? Would the police department be nearly as big without 20-year old drinking students to harass? Why would people stay at the Williams Inn (if there even were such a thing, but for the college)? How many pizza places or restaurants would there be in the area without student, faculty, and visitor demand? Not to mention the influence of Williams in creating Mass MoCA, the location of the Clark…
It’s Williams’ “fault” that there’s really anything in the region. It does a ton just by being there, and has no obligation to “give back” to a community from which it “takes” very little. Its “taking” is merely it’s tax-exempt status, meaning that the town doesn’t tax the college’s real property; any charge of this as “taking” from the town would be wildly incomplete without accounting for how much lower the rest of the property values would be without the college around. My own sense is that this accounting would only reinforce the point that the college does quite a bit for the town.
January 31st, 2007 at 8:36 pm
Loweeel- First of all, there is nothing wrong with Pownal. Lol. Now, having defended my birthplace, I would hope that those members with a more populist inclination, such as Johnathan, would defend the very ideology and principles that lay claim to helping people and paying those that work hard, a living wage.
As far as Willaims goes, and my claims that it has taken on predatory hiring pratices for its working class departments, I do not have access to any data that supports my claim (if any such data wold be kept). I can tell you that in the 70s each house had cooks that were well paid and Williams had great food. There was actually a relationship between the cooks and the houses… they celebrated birthdays of students and employees with personal cakes and such, if you can believe it. I can tell you that every employee that I know that works in a blue collar Dept (and I know most of them, I grew up with them)) will tell you off the record that they have witnessed things get worse,and that they are getting screwed.
If the more aspiring and better capable minds among you has the time and inclination to actually evaluate the school in this matter, I say whole heartedly, go for it.
The point that loweel makes about property values is rather odd… who does he think should own everything… the workers who live in a community, or outsiders who vacation there and can afford it? I fail to see how insane property values helps the working class in a community… after all, we pay taxes too.
One last comment… the Williamstown PD spends much more time chasing locals than it does College kids. I doubt many of you know the officers names… when I grew up,I knew all their names. Every spend a night in Williamstown PD jail for underage drinking… I have. Several times. So have most of my friends.
January 31st, 2007 at 8:46 pm
One more thing. None of this is to say that the college does not have a place in the town. It is extremely important to the identity of the town. It created the town. It has a very important role to play. It has an enormous amount of wealth. It is one of the finest, if not the finest academic institution in the world. We all know that.
January 31st, 2007 at 9:02 pm
I never said that there was anything WRONG with Pownal, but it’s not exactly a thriving metropolis, even by the standards of greater Williamstown.
Regarding the houses and the cooks, that’s a result of getting rid of the house and fraternity system, something that’s typically touted as equality-enhancing, as students now more-or-less eat together. The culprit for that is those who voted to remove the fraternity system. It was hardly a concerted effort to “screw the poor”, but instead a fundamental shift from residential dining to institutional dining.
I don’t know why you think higher property values (which mean higher property taxes collected) wouldn’t help the town. Who collects property taxes on property in Williamstown? Let’s see, is it the college? Nope. The Federal Government? Not yet, thank G-d. The state of MA? No not them either… Hmm, who could I be forgetting?
Regarding things getting worse, you might be surprised to find out that it’s *shock* not just confined to blue collar workers. Talk to any engineer, lawyer, doctor (or anybody who’s dealt with those any three on a professional level), and you’ll be regaled with tales of the good old days when they were “professions” rather than businesses. It’s been an economy-wide shift, and the transition from then to now is much more dramatic for engineers, doctors, and lawyers than for blue collar workers (though in large part because they WERE professions, rather than businesses).
As for the cops, you unwittingly reveal the shift. Things may well have been that way when you were a kid. But since Arthur Parker took over the WPD (in about 1997?), that hasn’t been the case; he’s ruined campus parties, the log, and then homecoming tailgaiting. The WPD and their asinine prosecutions were the driving force behind driving student drinking underground (and in the second order, the rash of students getting hospitalized for alcohol poisoning). Welcome to the modern era!
If your friends in the “blue collar depts” feel that they’re getting screwed, why don’t they take a job at a place that values their skills more than the college? Talk is cheap, and grumbling is free.
January 31st, 2007 at 11:26 pm
“The culprit for that is those who voted to remove the fraternity system.”
Loweel- I believe frats were out of Williams in the 1950s, while Cooks and maids were placed in specific houses, say… Wood house… for example, until the 80’s/90’s. Am I wrong about that?
As far as the police thing goes… I am pretty sure that campus security does the best job it can keeping the college kids off the record,and that very few of them get arrested for underage drinking… am I wrong about that?
Seriously… the drinking age changed. Maybe that has more to do with these effects than anything else? When MA went from 20 to 21 (under Reagan) that had a huge effect on College drinking and rules. Maybe that is more of what this is about? After all, when I was 18, Rogers Roost was booming in Pownal, the age was 18. Pownal is a great town- the tubs, the orchards, the resevoir…. beat the swimming holes in Williamstown by a long shot.
I believe if you refer to Jim Webbs response to the State of the Union, he mentions that the white collar folks are starting to feel the same thing the blue collar folks are feeling. But that is not the point. The point is, Williams is a powerhouse,and can afford, and should, to pay people a living wage.
“If your friends in the “blue collar depts” feel that they’re getting screwed, why don’t they take a job at a place that values their skills more than the college? Talk is cheap, and grumbling is free.”
I would suggest, the food, B&G and maid service is not as good as it was. Which hinders property upkeap and the rather important thing called food. All things… are relative. I doubt any of the people I mention, after working years on a job, could, would, or should, take it somehwere else.
February 1st, 2007 at 12:12 am
Sure, very few college kids get arrested for underage drinking, because we’ve learned to drink in our rooms. Pounding half a dozen shots before going out is a good way to avoid having to drink in public, but it’s also not particularly healthy.
February 1st, 2007 at 3:38 am
Bring back fraternities!
February 1st, 2007 at 6:39 am
Jonthan- Williams has done some fantastic things for the town.
When Williams helepd MT Greylock High school out financially, that was a big deal. Made for a ton of good press, and was the right thing to do. Well planned and well executed to enable the school as well, instead of giving a simple hand out.
Full time employees at Williams enjoy great benefits, especially when it comes to financial aid to education. The problem is the part time hirring practices and the attempt to find the bottom line in a sitaution that has more to do with community than buisness. You want people around you that you can trust with your sons and daughters possesions, security, and privacy? You have to establish a relationship to get that. When you get that, you save more money and deliver more of an education than you are paying by delivering on the promise of a living wage. I happen to believe that is true in all things… not just at Willaims.
February 1st, 2007 at 8:24 am
Like it or not, Williams is akin to a lord in his manor, the center of political and economic power for the village. It does not need to apologize for existing, but it does not need to be arrogant or thoughtless.
The blue collar component of the town is not an awkward afterthought, or a bunch of hangers-on, or a collection of losers who should be glad of he crumbs thrown their way. PTC brings up hiring practices that are now common in the country and are very damaging to the social health of all communities, whether it is Wal-mart of Williams doing it.
Williams the institution represents the entire Williams community - the alums, the students, the professors, etc., and the alienation of that larger community from the local population in order for marginal savings due to contemporary labor practices seems very shortsighted.
February 1st, 2007 at 4:57 pm
I don’t know why you think higher property values (which mean higher property taxes collected) wouldn’t help the town. Who collects property taxes on property in Williamstown? Let’s see, is it the college? Nope. The Federal Government? Not yet, thank G-d. The state of MA? No not them either… Hmm, who could I be forgetting?
And this is not correct. Higher property values result in an adjustment downward in the millage rate, so that the effect is no more than a 2 1/2 % increase each year. It is a washout as far as the town finances concerned, except when new houses are built.
February 1st, 2007 at 11:07 pm
Admitting local kids is a simple way to ease town/gown tensions. There is no mystery here.
February 1st, 2007 at 11:21 pm
How about admitting local kids who are a certainty to become all-NESCAC linebackers?
February 2nd, 2007 at 6:31 am
I am onbard with that progrm Frank!! Just think about what Williams could do to it’s Wrestling team if it recruited from Mount Anthony in Bennington… they have one of the best teams in the nation.
Give boys a chance… lower the board scores for athletes NOW!
February 2nd, 2007 at 7:05 am
I suspect that the locals believe Mt. Anthony is good in wrestling on a national level, but in fact it wouldn’t hold up against many, if not most, other regions in the country. Nonetheless good Mt. Anthony wrestlers probably would be good in NECCWA.
February 2nd, 2007 at 2:21 pm
Frank- Actually, Mount Anthony, believe it or not, has one of the best High School Wrestling teams in the country. Perhaps I should clarify that a little… it is not a Great Bridge, or the top team out of Allentown PA, or a Blair, but it is literally nationally recognized. It is a smaller school,that has won the New England open championships six times, and the Vermont state Championships the last 18 years in a row. I have seen them Wrestle the best teams in the nation at the Virginia duals and hold their own. Remember, we are talking about a small town in Vermont. It really is,amazing how tough those kids are.
http://eteamz.active.com/mountanthonywrestling/index.cfm?
February 2nd, 2007 at 4:19 pm
http://www.wrestlingusa.com/02%20wusa%20web%20root/hsbesteams/topusateamsofthe90.html
Notice that Mount Anthony falls out ranked 22nd Nationally, ranking since 1991. I would say, that qualifies them as one of the best teams in the nation. And yeah… They would tear up the NECCWA, if most of them did not go to bigger schools to wrestle at a more competative level… or if most of them had the grades/scores/ brains to get into Willaims.
February 2nd, 2007 at 5:22 pm
Just looked at wrestlingusa’s 2007 individual national rankings of 30+ boys for each weight class. Apparently Mount Anthony has only one ranked wrestler - ranked 8th at 119 pounds. My quess is that if Mount Anthony wrestled in the the Ohio State Championships, it would not finish in the top 10 teams for that state alone - perhaps not in the top 20.
February 2nd, 2007 at 5:43 pm
Frank- Naw. They would do better than that. Probly 3rd or 4th. Not a great year for them this year. They have been ranked as high as 5th in the nation,in the past. If you look at the rankings, a lot of those teams have PG programs. St Eds is tough, no doubt…so is Blair. Best in the Nation,always. But Mount Anthony just finsihed 5th in a major mid western regional tournament, and 2nd in a southern tournament, losting only to a 10X Alabama state champ team by a few points. Again, they do not have one of their better squads this year. Although they will win the state,and perhaps the New Englands again,of course. Adn they are still doing very well out of state,including in the South and the mid west.
February 3rd, 2007 at 9:22 am
Frank- Speaking of Blair St Eds, your boys from Ohio did not do to well this year. Of course, both these teams are Wrestling recruited Wrestlers. Blair has a huge PG prgram, I remember having Pat Santoro (blair) in my wieght class at a tounament as a PG. Guy was thrid in the Div 1 NCAA the following year. You wrestle Blair, and essentially, you are wrestling a well recruited junior college team. I know St Eds draws from the entire state of Ohio form having Bubba Stras in my weight class one time. Not sure if they have a PG program or not?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fnv0IHcSmo0
Sorry Frank and I are so off thread, but man,it is just fantastic to have a fellow wrestler on the blog. Better to have wrestled and lost, than to have played basketball!
February 3rd, 2007 at 10:06 am
St. Eds historically draws students from the west side of metro Cleveland - it is located in Lakewood, an old suburb abutting on the City of Cleveland western line. Greater Cleveland has been a hot bed of high school wrestling for well over 50 years - originally west side of Cleveland proper oriented - the east side has been stronger in basketball. St. Eds is relatively a new player on the Cleveland wrestling scene. It didn’t have wrestling when the 60s opened - I don’t know when wrestling was started there. I don’t believe St. Eds boards kids now - never did. Incidentally Geoff Morton, Williams class of ‘59 and former Williams basketball captain, became (when he retired as Headmaster of Cleveland University School) and continues to be, I believe, Guidance Counsellor at St. Eds.