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	<title>Comments on: Indulgences?</title>
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	<link>http://www.ephblog.com/2007/11/13/indulgences/</link>
	<description>All Things Eph</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 22:18:16 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.ephblog.com/2007/11/13/indulgences/comment-page-1/#comment-16934</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Nov 2007 22:58:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ephblog.dreamhosters.com/2007/11/13/indulgences/#comment-16934</guid>
		<description>... and yet we have to start somewhere.

Is there any value just to getting the issue on the table? Or do the yammering and almost meaningless action begin to shut our ears and numb our minds?

Might there be some good byproducts? Might increased demand for wind-generated energy increase interest and investment in the area and ultimately lead to technological breakthroughs, social acceptance of turbines, and efficiencies that lower the cost of such energy and/or increase the types of situations where it might be viably produced so that wind-generated energy would start actually replacing coal- and oil-generated energy?

When I get pessimistic about these things, I remember that thirty years ago, people all over America smoked just about everywhere, including hospitals and nursing homes. Similarly, although we still have a distance to go on racial issues, we have come a very great distance from where we were fifty years ago. I'm not for getting snookered by hype and spin but I also don't want to be broadly negative about nascent efforts.


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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8230; and yet we have to start somewhere.</p>
<p>Is there any value just to getting the issue on the table? Or do the yammering and almost meaningless action begin to shut our ears and numb our minds?</p>
<p>Might there be some good byproducts? Might increased demand for wind-generated energy increase interest and investment in the area and ultimately lead to technological breakthroughs, social acceptance of turbines, and efficiencies that lower the cost of such energy and/or increase the types of situations where it might be viably produced so that wind-generated energy would start actually replacing coal- and oil-generated energy?</p>
<p>When I get pessimistic about these things, I remember that thirty years ago, people all over America smoked just about everywhere, including hospitals and nursing homes. Similarly, although we still have a distance to go on racial issues, we have come a very great distance from where we were fifty years ago. I&#8217;m not for getting snookered by hype and spin but I also don&#8217;t want to be broadly negative about nascent efforts.</p>
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		<title>By: frank uible</title>
		<link>http://www.ephblog.com/2007/11/13/indulgences/comment-page-1/#comment-16933</link>
		<dc:creator>frank uible</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Nov 2007 20:03:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ephblog.dreamhosters.com/2007/11/13/indulgences/#comment-16933</guid>
		<description>David: To go off on the tangent which you provided - spin is a form of dishonesty.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David: To go off on the tangent which you provided - spin is a form of dishonesty.</p>
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		<title>By: FROSH mom</title>
		<link>http://www.ephblog.com/2007/11/13/indulgences/comment-page-1/#comment-16932</link>
		<dc:creator>FROSH mom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Nov 2007 18:41:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ephblog.dreamhosters.com/2007/11/13/indulgences/#comment-16932</guid>
		<description>Certainly puts a whole new spin on America's Favorite Pastime...

"Get yur solar-cooked, organic hot dog here!"


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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Certainly puts a whole new spin on America&#8217;s Favorite Pastime&#8230;</p>
<p>&#8220;Get yur solar-cooked, organic hot dog here!&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://www.ephblog.com/2007/11/13/indulgences/comment-page-1/#comment-16931</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Nov 2007 18:22:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ephblog.dreamhosters.com/2007/11/13/indulgences/#comment-16931</guid>
		<description>This is 10% (at most) substance and 90% misleading spin. (Not that there is anything wrong with spin, which is just another name for corporate politics.)

First, nothing changes at Gillette! They are using the same amount of power from the same dirty sources that they used last year. Just as much carbon is going into the atmosphere. (And, by the way, do you think that the Kraft's fly commercial when they go to away games? I doubt it! In fact, I bet you a lunch at Owl Feather War Bonnet Wind Farm that the Krafts take a separate private jet from the one that the team uses. No worries, though! They are buying offsets.

Second, why can't a newspaper article like this quote any skeptics? Why not just reprint the Patriots' news release?

Third, did you note the key number that is not reported? How much &lt;i&gt;money&lt;/i&gt; did the Patriots spend on these offsets? As far as we know, it could be $1! The entire rest of the article would still be &lt;i&gt;true&lt;/i&gt; even if no real money was used.

Fourth, even if some non-trivial amount of money was used, what is the real world substance? Was less carbon put into the atmosphere? Not that I can see. At best, those dollars subsidize wind power, thereby encouraging firms to build more windmills. Maybe that is a good thing but it is not clear that this meaningfully decreases carbon emissions. That only happens if this wind power displaces carbon-power that would have been used in its place. Is there much evidence of that? Not that I can see.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is 10% (at most) substance and 90% misleading spin. (Not that there is anything wrong with spin, which is just another name for corporate politics.)</p>
<p>First, nothing changes at Gillette! They are using the same amount of power from the same dirty sources that they used last year. Just as much carbon is going into the atmosphere. (And, by the way, do you think that the Kraft&#8217;s fly commercial when they go to away games? I doubt it! In fact, I bet you a lunch at Owl Feather War Bonnet Wind Farm that the Krafts take a separate private jet from the one that the team uses. No worries, though! They are buying offsets.</p>
<p>Second, why can&#8217;t a newspaper article like this quote any skeptics? Why not just reprint the Patriots&#8217; news release?</p>
<p>Third, did you note the key number that is not reported? How much <i>money</i> did the Patriots spend on these offsets? As far as we know, it could be $1! The entire rest of the article would still be <i>true</i> even if no real money was used.</p>
<p>Fourth, even if some non-trivial amount of money was used, what is the real world substance? Was less carbon put into the atmosphere? Not that I can see. At best, those dollars subsidize wind power, thereby encouraging firms to build more windmills. Maybe that is a good thing but it is not clear that this meaningfully decreases carbon emissions. That only happens if this wind power displaces carbon-power that would have been used in its place. Is there much evidence of that? Not that I can see.</p>
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		<title>By: frank uible</title>
		<link>http://www.ephblog.com/2007/11/13/indulgences/comment-page-1/#comment-16930</link>
		<dc:creator>frank uible</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Nov 2007 17:03:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ephblog.dreamhosters.com/2007/11/13/indulgences/#comment-16930</guid>
		<description>The typical Patriot fan doesn't give a fig for conservation or consumption unless it increases or reduces his cost of watching his team.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The typical Patriot fan doesn&#8217;t give a fig for conservation or consumption unless it increases or reduces his cost of watching his team.</p>
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		<title>By: Anon '89er</title>
		<link>http://www.ephblog.com/2007/11/13/indulgences/comment-page-1/#comment-16929</link>
		<dc:creator>Anon '89er</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Nov 2007 15:47:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ephblog.dreamhosters.com/2007/11/13/indulgences/#comment-16929</guid>
		<description>There is definitely a big overlap in the pro-Moss and pro-wind power contingents.  As evidence see the enormous wind turbine that the IBEW in Dorchester set up in their parking lot, towering over I-93.  Maybe it is just another union make-work project like the big dig.

In any case, make-work here beats having a totally free market that incidentally underwrites international terrorism.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is definitely a big overlap in the pro-Moss and pro-wind power contingents.  As evidence see the enormous wind turbine that the IBEW in Dorchester set up in their parking lot, towering over I-93.  Maybe it is just another union make-work project like the big dig.</p>
<p>In any case, make-work here beats having a totally free market that incidentally underwrites international terrorism.</p>
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		<title>By: matt</title>
		<link>http://www.ephblog.com/2007/11/13/indulgences/comment-page-1/#comment-16928</link>
		<dc:creator>matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Nov 2007 14:40:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ephblog.dreamhosters.com/2007/11/13/indulgences/#comment-16928</guid>
		<description>this is not a factual accounting of the people that purchase offsets. TerraPass a leading offset provider studied thier consumer. They found that the average person purchasing offsets is more likely to bike to work,and monitor their thermostat. The average purchaser is 200 times more likely then the typical American to have solar power. People that purchase offsets want to balance out what they can't reduce, not balance out their over use.

You can read about the study here http://carbonneutraldigest.com/?p=89
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>this is not a factual accounting of the people that purchase offsets. TerraPass a leading offset provider studied thier consumer. They found that the average person purchasing offsets is more likely to bike to work,and monitor their thermostat. The average purchaser is 200 times more likely then the typical American to have solar power. People that purchase offsets want to balance out what they can&#8217;t reduce, not balance out their over use.</p>
<p>You can read about the study here <a href="http://carbonneutraldigest.com/?p=89" rel="nofollow">http://carbonneutraldigest.com/?p=89</a></p>
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		<title>By: '10</title>
		<link>http://www.ephblog.com/2007/11/13/indulgences/comment-page-1/#comment-16927</link>
		<dc:creator>'10</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Nov 2007 08:56:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ephblog.dreamhosters.com/2007/11/13/indulgences/#comment-16927</guid>
		<description>The difference is that indulgences can't actually reverse the effects of sin, while offsets can and do reverse the effects of emissions. You can claim that a particular seller of offsets might be a fraud, but to compare offsets in general to indulgences is idiotic.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The difference is that indulgences can&#8217;t actually reverse the effects of sin, while offsets can and do reverse the effects of emissions. You can claim that a particular seller of offsets might be a fraud, but to compare offsets in general to indulgences is idiotic.</p>
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		<title>By: Loweeel</title>
		<link>http://www.ephblog.com/2007/11/13/indulgences/comment-page-1/#comment-16926</link>
		<dc:creator>Loweeel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Nov 2007 08:10:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ephblog.dreamhosters.com/2007/11/13/indulgences/#comment-16926</guid>
		<description>They can't even win over their own senator (see, e.g., "Hyannispawt").  I think that, being a windbag himself, he's probably afraid of the competition.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>They can&#8217;t even win over their own senator (see, e.g., &#8220;Hyannispawt&#8221;).  I think that, being a windbag himself, he&#8217;s probably afraid of the competition.</p>
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		<title>By: frank uible</title>
		<link>http://www.ephblog.com/2007/11/13/indulgences/comment-page-1/#comment-16925</link>
		<dc:creator>frank uible</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Nov 2007 07:02:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ephblog.dreamhosters.com/2007/11/13/indulgences/#comment-16925</guid>
		<description>Possibly but not probably to any great extent.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Possibly but not probably to any great extent.</p>
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