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	<title>Comments on: Details and History for WNY</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.ephblog.com/2007/11/28/details-and-history-for-wny/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.ephblog.com/2007/11/28/details-and-history-for-wny/</link>
	<description>All Things Eph</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 21:07:44 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.ephblog.com/2007/11/28/details-and-history-for-wny/comment-page-1/#comment-17256</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Nov 2007 02:17:24 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>As someone who teaches a foreign language, let me agree with David that language requirements at the college level are a bad idea.  Beyond the issue of freedom to choose one's classes (which is very important), language classes in which people are only there to fill a requirement are miserable things.

And yes, the fact that many languages are not included in the new Exploring Diversity requirement is absurd.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As someone who teaches a foreign language, let me agree with David that language requirements at the college level are a bad idea.  Beyond the issue of freedom to choose one&#8217;s classes (which is very important), language classes in which people are only there to fill a requirement are miserable things.</p>
<p>And yes, the fact that many languages are not included in the new Exploring Diversity requirement is absurd.</p>
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		<title>By: current eph</title>
		<link>http://www.ephblog.com/2007/11/28/details-and-history-for-wny/comment-page-1/#comment-17255</link>
		<dc:creator>current eph</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Nov 2007 19:58:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ephblog.dreamhosters.com/2007/11/28/details-and-history-for-wny/#comment-17255</guid>
		<description>Re: David's #3...I totally agree.  A language requirement would be a huge limiting factor for what classes the less well-off students at Williams could take; intro languages at Williams (probably everywhere) are huge time commitments and typically conflict with far more than their share of other classes.

That said, I do wish I spoke a language better.  I'm not sure that college would have been the place to learn.  I'm all for increasing the emphasis on languages in primary grades (we should all be learning Spanish/French at the very least in elementary or middle school), but I don't think that language requirements in College really are the sort of "fix" eph seems to be looking for.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: David&#8217;s #3&#8230;I totally agree.  A language requirement would be a huge limiting factor for what classes the less well-off students at Williams could take; intro languages at Williams (probably everywhere) are huge time commitments and typically conflict with far more than their share of other classes.</p>
<p>That said, I do wish I spoke a language better.  I&#8217;m not sure that college would have been the place to learn.  I&#8217;m all for increasing the emphasis on languages in primary grades (we should all be learning Spanish/French at the very least in elementary or middle school), but I don&#8217;t think that language requirements in College really are the sort of &#8220;fix&#8221; eph seems to be looking for.</p>
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		<title>By: nyc</title>
		<link>http://www.ephblog.com/2007/11/28/details-and-history-for-wny/comment-page-1/#comment-17254</link>
		<dc:creator>nyc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Nov 2007 19:52:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ephblog.dreamhosters.com/2007/11/28/details-and-history-for-wny/#comment-17254</guid>
		<description>David, it seems you've missed the point.

It is critical, as you say, that all Williams programs, off-campus and on, be academically rigorous before they are anything else.

If it were indeed true that students were sloughing off coursework in favor of internships (and gaining, as you fear, far too much credit for them in the process), I would share your worry.

But I'd urge you to think about the program not as a series of internships, but as an opportunity for students to pursue fieldwork. This may sound like a rhetorical distinction, but hear me out:

For older students in particular, one of the more valuable components of a Williams education in particular is the opportunity to pursue a longer-term project (research in the field followed by an extensive period of writing and revision under the supervision of a faculty mentor, for instance, or a chance to translate abstract theoretical tools into lived experience).

Williams-in-New York is the only program at Williams open to all* that offers students an opportunity to do this kind of work as part of a structured program. (Fieldwork, when it happens at all, is typically relegated to the summer.) Given that, and given that academic governors at Williams have been appropriately satisfied as to the rigor inherent in such fieldwork, I find the credit structure appropriate.


*The summer Mellon Fellows program may offer some minority students a mentored research opportunity.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David, it seems you&#8217;ve missed the point.</p>
<p>It is critical, as you say, that all Williams programs, off-campus and on, be academically rigorous before they are anything else.</p>
<p>If it were indeed true that students were sloughing off coursework in favor of internships (and gaining, as you fear, far too much credit for them in the process), I would share your worry.</p>
<p>But I&#8217;d urge you to think about the program not as a series of internships, but as an opportunity for students to pursue fieldwork. This may sound like a rhetorical distinction, but hear me out:</p>
<p>For older students in particular, one of the more valuable components of a Williams education in particular is the opportunity to pursue a longer-term project (research in the field followed by an extensive period of writing and revision under the supervision of a faculty mentor, for instance, or a chance to translate abstract theoretical tools into lived experience).</p>
<p>Williams-in-New York is the only program at Williams open to all* that offers students an opportunity to do this kind of work as part of a structured program. (Fieldwork, when it happens at all, is typically relegated to the summer.) Given that, and given that academic governors at Williams have been appropriately satisfied as to the rigor inherent in such fieldwork, I find the credit structure appropriate.</p>
<p>*The summer Mellon Fellows program may offer some minority students a mentored research opportunity.</p>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://www.ephblog.com/2007/11/28/details-and-history-for-wny/comment-page-1/#comment-17253</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Nov 2007 19:41:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ephblog.dreamhosters.com/2007/11/28/details-and-history-for-wny/#comment-17253</guid>
		<description>1) Please define *basic proficiency*. Key is what the requirement will be for those who don't pass. Will one year of foreign language instruction be enough? That is pretty basic! (Not a knock on Williams language teachers.) If you want two years, then that is a serious demand to place on students. And, it isn't even clear how many would consider that enough for basic proficiency.

2) Whatever way you define basic proficiency, almost all the rich kids who get into Williams will already be exempt. Rich kids go to excellent schools, either public or private. The vast majority of them will have had 4 years of a foreign language in high school. Many will take an AP or achievement test as well. Almost all would be able to pass out of any test that could be passed by someone who had, from scratch, taken two  years at Williams.

3) So, any requirement will mostly impact non-rich kids. Sucks to be them! In fact, I think that the majority (75%? 90%?) would be able to pass out of any requirement from the start. How many of your friends would actually be required to do anything?

4) And what's the point? Some kids love languages and want to learn them. Good for them. And Williams should do everything it can to support those students. For example, I am glad to see that Williams now offers Arabic to those students who *want* to take it. But you are proposing forcing students &lt;i&gt;who do not want to take a language and who, for whatever reason, did not take a language in high school&lt;/i&gt; to take a year (or two? or three?) of a language. How well do you think that is going to work out? Do you think that they will enjoy themselves? That they will get something out of it? That they will thank you for it later?

I'll take the other side of those bets.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>1) Please define *basic proficiency*. Key is what the requirement will be for those who don&#8217;t pass. Will one year of foreign language instruction be enough? That is pretty basic! (Not a knock on Williams language teachers.) If you want two years, then that is a serious demand to place on students. And, it isn&#8217;t even clear how many would consider that enough for basic proficiency.</p>
<p>2) Whatever way you define basic proficiency, almost all the rich kids who get into Williams will already be exempt. Rich kids go to excellent schools, either public or private. The vast majority of them will have had 4 years of a foreign language in high school. Many will take an AP or achievement test as well. Almost all would be able to pass out of any test that could be passed by someone who had, from scratch, taken two  years at Williams.</p>
<p>3) So, any requirement will mostly impact non-rich kids. Sucks to be them! In fact, I think that the majority (75%? 90%?) would be able to pass out of any requirement from the start. How many of your friends would actually be required to do anything?</p>
<p>4) And what&#8217;s the point? Some kids love languages and want to learn them. Good for them. And Williams should do everything it can to support those students. For example, I am glad to see that Williams now offers Arabic to those students who *want* to take it. But you are proposing forcing students <i>who do not want to take a language and who, for whatever reason, did not take a language in high school</i> to take a year (or two? or three?) of a language. How well do you think that is going to work out? Do you think that they will enjoy themselves? That they will get something out of it? That they will thank you for it later?</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll take the other side of those bets.</p>
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		<title>By: anothereph</title>
		<link>http://www.ephblog.com/2007/11/28/details-and-history-for-wny/comment-page-1/#comment-17252</link>
		<dc:creator>anothereph</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Nov 2007 19:35:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ephblog.dreamhosters.com/2007/11/28/details-and-history-for-wny/#comment-17252</guid>
		<description>Re. the following: &gt;&gt;Although everyone loves a fun-filled vacation in NYC, I would expect these students to spend as much time on academics as their peers in Williamstown (or at Williams-at-Oxford).Re. the following: &gt;&gt;Although everyone loves a fun-filled vacation in NYC, I would expect these students to spend as much time on academics as their peers in Williamstown (or at Williams-at-Oxford).&lt;

Lots of students appear to be "lov[ing] a fun-filled vacation" in Williamstown. If you're going to get real about academic seriousness, you've got to get real in Williamstown, too.

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re. the following: >>Although everyone loves a fun-filled vacation in NYC, I would expect these students to spend as much time on academics as their peers in Williamstown (or at Williams-at-Oxford).Re. the following: >>Although everyone loves a fun-filled vacation in NYC, I would expect these students to spend as much time on academics as their peers in Williamstown (or at Williams-at-Oxford).<</p>
<p>Lots of students appear to be &#8220;lov[ing] a fun-filled vacation&#8221; in Williamstown. If you&#8217;re going to get real about academic seriousness, you&#8217;ve got to get real in Williamstown, too.</p>
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		<title>By: eph</title>
		<link>http://www.ephblog.com/2007/11/28/details-and-history-for-wny/comment-page-1/#comment-17251</link>
		<dc:creator>eph</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Nov 2007 19:28:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ephblog.dreamhosters.com/2007/11/28/details-and-history-for-wny/#comment-17251</guid>
		<description>6) Huge kudos to whatever faculty members fought against a language requirement for Williams. The fewer requirements that Williams has (besides 32 courses and a major), the better.

You must not be serious. I'm certainly not for making Williams four years of mandatory checking-of-boxes, but in an era such as this, not to require at least basic proficiency in one other language-- the most painless way of ensuring that students think about the outside world, and certainly far more painless than requiring ungodly numbers of nebulously-defined 'peoples and cultures' courses** -- is bordering on irresponsible.
**Languages don't count here, by the way, speaking of perverse incentives.

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>6) Huge kudos to whatever faculty members fought against a language requirement for Williams. The fewer requirements that Williams has (besides 32 courses and a major), the better.</p>
<p>You must not be serious. I&#8217;m certainly not for making Williams four years of mandatory checking-of-boxes, but in an era such as this, not to require at least basic proficiency in one other language&#8211; the most painless way of ensuring that students think about the outside world, and certainly far more painless than requiring ungodly numbers of nebulously-defined &#8216;peoples and cultures&#8217; courses** &#8212; is bordering on irresponsible.<br />
**Languages don&#8217;t count here, by the way, speaking of perverse incentives.</p>
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		<title>By: FROSH mom</title>
		<link>http://www.ephblog.com/2007/11/28/details-and-history-for-wny/comment-page-1/#comment-17250</link>
		<dc:creator>FROSH mom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Nov 2007 18:44:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ephblog.dreamhosters.com/2007/11/28/details-and-history-for-wny/#comment-17250</guid>
		<description>Some of the requirements are asking way too much!

"Visit a major museum."
"Attend...a music performance"
"Attend a Broadway show"

Then again, it is Williams.




</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some of the requirements are asking way too much!</p>
<p>&#8220;Visit a major museum.&#8221;<br />
&#8220;Attend&#8230;a music performance&#8221;<br />
&#8220;Attend a Broadway show&#8221;</p>
<p>Then again, it is Williams.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.ephblog.com/2007/11/28/details-and-history-for-wny/comment-page-1/#comment-17249</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Nov 2007 01:59:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ephblog.dreamhosters.com/2007/11/28/details-and-history-for-wny/#comment-17249</guid>
		<description>Was 3:1 intended but stated as 3:2?
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Was 3:1 intended but stated as 3:2?</p>
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		<title>By: 4:41</title>
		<link>http://www.ephblog.com/2007/11/28/details-and-history-for-wny/comment-page-1/#comment-17248</link>
		<dc:creator>4:41</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Nov 2007 01:59:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ephblog.dreamhosters.com/2007/11/28/details-and-history-for-wny/#comment-17248</guid>
		<description>Wait, I feel like I'm blatantly misreading something--can someone help me out?  It sounds like Jackall is saying that every year of WNY &lt;i&gt;after&lt;/i&gt; the first year has had a 3:2 applicant to spaces ratio.  As he states that there are currently 8 spaces available, "three applicants for every two spaces per semester" would indicate that there were 12 applicants each semester.  However, this is the number of applications he says they had the first year.  Regardless, an average of 12 applicants for 8 spaces each year doesn't seem to be nearly enough to justify David's requests for an expansion of the program.

So what am I missing right now?
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wait, I feel like I&#8217;m blatantly misreading something&#8211;can someone help me out?  It sounds like Jackall is saying that every year of WNY <i>after</i> the first year has had a 3:2 applicant to spaces ratio.  As he states that there are currently 8 spaces available, &#8220;three applicants for every two spaces per semester&#8221; would indicate that there were 12 applicants each semester.  However, this is the number of applications he says they had the first year.  Regardless, an average of 12 applicants for 8 spaces each year doesn&#8217;t seem to be nearly enough to justify David&#8217;s requests for an expansion of the program.</p>
<p>So what am I missing right now?</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.ephblog.com/2007/11/28/details-and-history-for-wny/comment-page-1/#comment-17247</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Nov 2007 01:51:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ephblog.dreamhosters.com/2007/11/28/details-and-history-for-wny/#comment-17247</guid>
		<description>Thank you to Prof. Jackall for providing the information and, more importantly, for championing this experiential learning program in the Gaudino mode.

I'd be interested in knowing more about the relationship with NYU and how that will fit into future versions of the program. I saw it mentioned on the WNY website, but didn't see it in the materials Prof. Jackall provided here.

In looking at the materials, I was excited about how alumni and alumnae participate and open their professional lives and perspectives to current students. To me, the courses looked as though they would expose students to (and in some cases train them in) varied ways of looking at things and also make them more comfortable/familiar with exploring the unknown and unfamiliar. Whatever path one planned to take professionally, I would think those experiences could be quite useful.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you to Prof. Jackall for providing the information and, more importantly, for championing this experiential learning program in the Gaudino mode.</p>
<p>I&#8217;d be interested in knowing more about the relationship with NYU and how that will fit into future versions of the program. I saw it mentioned on the WNY website, but didn&#8217;t see it in the materials Prof. Jackall provided here.</p>
<p>In looking at the materials, I was excited about how alumni and alumnae participate and open their professional lives and perspectives to current students. To me, the courses looked as though they would expose students to (and in some cases train them in) varied ways of looking at things and also make them more comfortable/familiar with exploring the unknown and unfamiliar. Whatever path one planned to take professionally, I would think those experiences could be quite useful.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.ephblog.com/2007/11/28/details-and-history-for-wny/comment-page-1/#comment-17246</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Nov 2007 01:46:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ephblog.dreamhosters.com/2007/11/28/details-and-history-for-wny/#comment-17246</guid>
		<description>To 4:46 pm: If you will read carefully, you will see that only for the first time that it was offered was the ratio of applicants to spaces not 3:1 --
"Excluding the very first (fall 2005) semester when there were only 12 applicants, the pilot program has had about three applicants for every two spaces per semester."

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To 4:46 pm: If you will read carefully, you will see that only for the first time that it was offered was the ratio of applicants to spaces not 3:1 &#8211;<br />
&#8220;Excluding the very first (fall 2005) semester when there were only 12 applicants, the pilot program has had about three applicants for every two spaces per semester.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.ephblog.com/2007/11/28/details-and-history-for-wny/comment-page-1/#comment-17245</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Nov 2007 00:46:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.ephblog.dreamhosters.com/2007/11/28/details-and-history-for-wny/#comment-17245</guid>
		<description>In response to Jackall's #3--isn't 12 applicants per 8 spots, a 3:2 applicant to spot ratio?

In response to David's point about increasing the WNY enrollment...shouldn't Williams be focusing on more highly desired programs first?  My understanding of application to the Oxford Programme is that in both absolute numbers and percentages, there are more people who want to participate who are not given the chance (I've heard that roughly 2-3 as many people apply as there are spaces, which means that 25+ Ephs aren't getting the chance to go to Oxford every year, which is a pretty significant number).
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In response to Jackall&#8217;s #3&#8211;isn&#8217;t 12 applicants per 8 spots, a 3:2 applicant to spot ratio?</p>
<p>In response to David&#8217;s point about increasing the WNY enrollment&#8230;shouldn&#8217;t Williams be focusing on more highly desired programs first?  My understanding of application to the Oxford Programme is that in both absolute numbers and percentages, there are more people who want to participate who are not given the chance (I&#8217;ve heard that roughly 2-3 as many people apply as there are spaces, which means that 25+ Ephs aren&#8217;t getting the chance to go to Oxford every year, which is a pretty significant number).</p>
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