Mon 17 Dec 2007
Don’t make the mistake that this student did.
Why didn’t I choose to go to williams???
I was accepted last year RD to Williams, but I turned it down to go to an arguably more prestigious college. As this time of the year rolls around again, it got me thinking: why oh why didn’t I choose to go to Williams instead? It has a beautiful campus, amazing facilities for a liberal arts college, awesome faculty resources even based on raw numbers professors alone( it blows both Amherst and Dartmouth out of the water in this regard), and all the money a student could ever need (highest funding for summer research of any US college/university AND generous financial aid). Its strengths lie directly within my academic interests. Its tutorial system and Oxford exchange program is unique unto itself. It has amazing placement rates in industries, and professional AND graduate schools according to the surveys such as the WSJ one. Its tight alumni network paved the way for the recent massive campus expansion. Did I just turn down the school because of mere rumors of it being a jock school, despite the fact that it has a lower athletic participation rate than both Amherst and Dartmouth? Did I make the biggest mistake of my life? Can someone else who turned down Williams please level my head.
More than half the students who choose places like Harvard, Yale, Princeton and Stanford over Williams would be better off if they had selected Williams instead. Recall the advice that I gave to Julia Sendor ‘08 4 years ago. The phrase “arguably more prestigious” strongly suggests, however, that this student did not have the option on HYPS. Instead, he is probably at one of the lesser Ivies. There are good reasons to choose, say, Columbia, over Williams. If you love the city and hate the country, don’t move to Williamstown. But most students have much shallower reasons for making that decision, often not wanting to go to a school that their Aunt Sally confuses with Williams and Mary. That’s a mistake.
Reader assignment: Point out which points made by the non-Eph above make sense and which do not.
December 17th, 2007 at 9:22 am
I don’t accept assignments during - what was commonly called in less sensitive times - Christmas Vacation.
December 17th, 2007 at 10:47 am
“More than half the students who choose places like Harvard, Yale, Princeton and Stanford over Williams would be better off if they had selected Williams instead.”
seems like a pretty big stab in the dark to be throwing around without an “I think that” in front of it. I am certainly thankful I ended up at Williams, but many students realize that they are happy no matter where they choose..
December 17th, 2007 at 10:51 am
Uhhhh, how does that contradict what I said? Most students are happy in college. No kidding. The issue is whether or not the 500 or so students are are admitted to both Williams and HYPS would be better off if they chose Williams. See the link above for details as to why.
December 17th, 2007 at 11:10 am
David,
Excluding students who applied to Williams only because it was ranked #1, I disagree, David. I think that applying to a Williams as a legitimate interest shows an interest in the liberal arts and one’s own education. That’s the key to a successful williams career–but also can be one at a larger research university.
Students at my current school can get Williams-esque attention from professors, they just have to search it out, whereas at Williams it is a given. But, on the other side, they do get much more famous/exciting speakers and events, many more (because of pure size of the school + location) of those events, and potential access to a wider variety of subjects. A Williams student would run wild at a larger school–these students who pick the larger school over Williams might do so because they know they can break out of the traditional big-school student mold. They want the variety a large school provides, and are willing to go to extra lengths to get the benefits of a small LAC.
So it takes a lot of extra work, yes, but if a student is willing to do it, it’s possible to get a lot of the williams experience at a larger school. And I’d bet that the students who I see doing so (coming to my office hours to chat about what grad school is like, students who know professors outside of class, who do research with profs, etc.) are the ones who seriously considered Williams (and other small LACs) in their search, in opposition to those who didn’t even consider the small LAC.
but that’s a minor disagreement–in general, i agree that students should take the easier road to that experience in college (the LAC) and then, if they love it enough, that’s the sign grad school might be a good idea.
December 17th, 2007 at 11:48 am
Was the alumni network really behind campus expansion?
Per your link, I must admit, that my husband and I have a lot of fun talking about the different responses we get when sharing with people where are frosh ended up. There can be range, but mostly the reactions fall into two camps:
camp (a): crinkling of brow, questioning look, subject changes
camp (b): jaw drops, eyes go wide, unmistakable look of “No Way!”
December 17th, 2007 at 11:49 am
Having spoken to a number of students who have turned down Williams, many did so at the request of parents who emphasized prestige and name recognition as more important. Many of these parents claimed they would not finance their student’s education if they chose Williams. Some even offered cash incentives to choose schools they felt to be more imnporant for their personal reasons rather than their student’s personal and educational interests.
December 17th, 2007 at 12:44 pm
In terms of life outcomes and ultimate satisfaction, I am hard pressed to argue that attending Williams differs all that much from attending any other good liberal arts college. My advice to high school students is to visit campuses when students are around and go where you feel the most comfortable (or get the most excited about). Williams certainly has admirable features and is attractive to many students, but you can make friends and receive a good education pretty much anywhere.
If choosing to attend a good university is the worst decision the student makes, s/he is way ahead in life.
December 17th, 2007 at 2:05 pm
I am as big an advocate for choosing Williams over HYP etc. as you will find, but I must say I find your comment a little strange, David. Aren’t you generally hyper-critical of those who would tell high school seniors what to do (supposedly for their own good), instead of trusting them to follow their own instincts regarding what is best for them? (Of for that matter, critical of any higher authority trying to collectively direct the lives of individuals, rather than relying on their own individual choice). In fact, I could have sworn we had this exact same discussion on this blog on some other topic, where you were arguing exactly the opposite of your current position.
That being said, I would say that there are probably some students who should choose Williams, but don’t, because of imperfect information … namely, they have never heard of the school (or LA schools in general) or know very little about it, whereas they have heard about HYP their entire lives. Were high schoolers perfectly informed about all Williams has to offer, I bet the relative yield would increase in Williams’ favor. Still, I doubt it would rise to 50 percent … and I trust that the students who are smart enough to gain admission to these types of schools might also be smart enought to realize what type of institution suits them best. The small liberal arts model is DEFINITELY not for everyone …
December 17th, 2007 at 2:28 pm
When people have full information, I am in favor of letting them do as they will. But students (and their parents) have very imperfect information about how a Williams education compares to a Harvard one. For example, assume that a Williams students over 4 years spend X minutes talking with professors. For Harvard students, the total would be, at best, X/10. Assume that a Williams student receives Y words of commentary on her papers. A Yale students, on average, gets Y/10. Almost all written commentary is provided by poorly paid and often ill-motivated graduate students.
Now, it is reasonable to think that face-to-face discussions and written feedback is stupid and useless. But the issue is that many/most students do not even realize the magnitude of the trade-off.
I agree that the key distinction here is not Williams versus Swathmore but LAC versus university.
December 17th, 2007 at 2:53 pm
Kane, it is a matter of what you are shopping for.
If you are looking for a brand name school, then Harvard, Princeton, and Yale are at the top of the heap. Why pay HYP prices for the lower level of brand recognition?
Most students do not want contact with faculty members. Office hours often serve as invaluable time for faculty members to catch up on writing and paperwork. And some students may LIKE the model of a luminary lecturing for 2.5 hours a week and then engaging in a small discussion led by a smart graduate student (who will most likely NOT become a luminary).
If you are looking for a vibrant student culture where everything and anything is represented, then you would probably be much better off at a good state school than Williams. Certainly, big research universities have much more to offer with regards to diversity of students, groups, activities, and cultural events. Size ain’t all bad.
Williams is great. The faculty are generally very good teachers and sufficiently on top of their field to do good research. The resources are astonishing — especially given the small size of the student body. The campus and countryside are gorgeous. The students are high achieving and generally friendly.
But don’t kid yourself into thinking that this is:
a) unique — there are a small set of schools that can claim the same thing
b) universally desirable — Williams cannot be all things to all people and tastes may differ
c) the “right choice” — the type of students accepted by Williams would thrive in any setting. For the small minority who would only be happy at a school like Williams, they still have the options of schools like Amherst, Middlebury, Carleton, Bowdoin, Grinnell, etc..
December 17th, 2007 at 3:46 pm
One certainty about Williams alums in general is that they can and do use a lot of words to say very little.
December 17th, 2007 at 4:38 pm
Yes, and if you kept your mouth shut, everybody would listen.
December 17th, 2007 at 6:02 pm
Frank:
It might be time for some of that wonderfully expressive Italian.
December 17th, 2007 at 7:01 pm
Will “cane che abbaia non morde” do it?
December 17th, 2007 at 8:50 pm
I remember sitting in Baxter dining hall the second semester of my freshman year talking to a visiting Harvard student who was bemoaning the fact that she hadn’t gone to Williams. She’d been accepted at both and went for the Harvard glory, only to find out that the big name professors rarely turned up. She listed all her courses (all taught by big name professors) and said the professors turned up for the first class and then grad students taught the rest. Her classes were much larger as well. She was sitting in classes with hundreds of students and I think the largest class I had at the time was 25 students.
I was saved from that mistake because my father was a professor, and he clued me in on what to look for (class size, does the professor teach the course, are they engaging teachers). Having said that, Williams certainly does not have a lock on offering a great education. I think it really does come down to personality fit. I applied to Williams, Carleton, Haverford, and Princeton, got into all of them, and chose Williams because it just felt like home to me. The others were great, but I didn’t get that deep down feeling of “this is me.”
I certainly knew students at Williams who didn’t like it–legacy students who attended to continue the family line, students who would have been much happier at a city university. My daughter will be looking at colleges in four years, and while I’d love her to go to Williams (assuming she can get in), I most fervently want her to go to “her” college, as only if it’s “hers” will she make the most of it.
December 18th, 2007 at 12:41 am
All the information that any student could ever need to make a fully informed college choice is widely available.
If a student ends up at a big university and is surprised to find grad student TA doing much of the teaching, well…they have nobody to blame but themselves.
December 18th, 2007 at 8:28 am
I’m not so sure all the information is so readily available or understandable or able to be digested.
A place that markets itself one way may have a very different feel in person. Almost all schools heavily emphasize and spin everything they think is positive. Schools with significantly fewer resources frequently adopt higher-tiered schools’ terminology and the admissions and campus life buzz words de jour. Much of this can be aspirational rather than actualities. An experienced adult who looks very carefully at the marketing materials can often see through the discrepancies; I’m not so sure a high school student can, unless he or she is very sophisticated or has benefited from excellent (and eye-opening) advice. Digging deeper into a school’s website, reading its campus newspaper, and so forth can be revelatory, but that’s very time-consuming (especially if doing it for a handful of schools), and generally works best only if one knows from the outset what sorts of things to look for.
Matches that would seem to be perfect on paper sometimes don’t work well in actuality. That’s true with people and it’s even more true in matches between individuals and institutions since, unlike another person, there’s little chance that the institution will change significantly in response to the relationship.
And then there are things like the weather. A student from a balmy place with no experience of snow may find the photographs romantically appealing and then discover himself or herself devastated by the gray skies and short days; another student, similarly situated, may thrive on the cold and the fun of winter activities.
Hope and aid can play a large role. Students have to go where they can afford to go. There may be plenty of information out there suggesting that a particular applicant will not have a wonderful four years socially at institution X, but, if that’s where the money is, the student may have to let hope override carefully considering the import of the “mismatch” information.
Some of the factors that make individual students unhappy at, or ill-suited for, particular institutions are things that could be discovered during a visit; others are not. If at all possible, applicants really should visit the schools that interest them, preferably staying with and mingling with current students and experiencing typical conditions (weather, teaching, things to do, housing, food, what clubs actually do, how a coach and team interact, and so forth). That, carefully researching schools, and a degree of self-knowledge will eliminate many mismatches, but there is still a modicum of luck involved and happiness also often comes down to personality traits such as flexibility, resilience, and optimism.
December 18th, 2007 at 9:03 am
My wife chose not to go to Williams because she was interested in Theater. It still did not stop her from getting into the best graduate programs in the country, when she decided to change course. If she had gone to Williams she would not have gotten half of the life experiences she got going to a big City school, living out in the city, and learning how to survive in the “real world.” Nor would she have gotten the real world experiences in her craft… the school she chose had a better program.
I would suspect it is like that for a lot of young people. I bartended and lived out in the city when I went to College. Possible at Williams, but how many young people can get full time employment that is worhtwhile in Williamstown?
Williams has an atmosphere that is more like a prep school than a college in many ways. Part of that is because of location… the other part is just the culture. How many people want to go to prep school at age 20?
December 18th, 2007 at 11:11 am
I am new to this blog (first post) so I may be making a mistake, but I have to assume the poster above, PTC, has some sort of significant relationship with the school to make such generalizations. A prep school attitude? As you say, neither you nor your wife went to the college. Some harsh criticism from someone who seemingly has no involvement with Williams.
December 18th, 2007 at 12:09 pm
“I’m not sure that all the information is so……. understandable or able to be digested.”
This part of 8:28’s post strikes home with me.
It must be remembered that these are high school kids making these decisions. And as a parent, you experience a bit of a quandary because you know you should step back and let it be their choice, their school. But at the same time, you see them being wrongly influenced in ways that can’t be helped, given their age. Visiting is a definite advantage, but a real luxury, considering the time and money needed.
All that said, my frosh experienced the same thing that one of the other posters talked about; the “feeling” that Williams was the one. And then, there was the great, good fortune to be accepted.
To end up at the right school takes more than just rational decision-making. It also depends on a bit of good ole serendipity… for which we are very grateful.
December 18th, 2007 at 1:23 pm
December 18, 2007 11:11 AM-
I said “Prep School like Atmosphere”, which I would argue is the case with a majority of small town elite liberal arts colleges in New England. I do not think this is a criticism, or even harsh. It is more of a critique. A lot of students would rather go to larger universities, for all the reasons stated in the posts above mine. Some people do not want a small liberal arts college atmosphere, especially at an older age. Others may prefer a smalle intimate, “school social life” scene, much like a prep school offers.
For example… a lot of people who can and do get in, may not want to go to Williams or any other small rural elite Colleges because they already went to Andover, Exeter, Choate..etc. etc. etc
I’ll admit that my question/statement (”who would want to go to prep school at age 20?”) was a little harsh and more of a joking response to David’s ascertains of unsurpassed greatness rather than 100 % reality based. No offense.
December 19th, 2007 at 12:02 am
The information is available. As you point out: reading the campus newspaper, doing overnight visits, ad infinitum.
For example, is there really any excuse for a freshman arriving at Dartmouth and being shocked to find out that it’s a big binge drinking school?
The issue is not the lack of information. The issue is that consumers either don’t want to bother researching and/or don’t want to believe what they do learn. For example, consumers don’t want to believe that an Ivy League school has grad student TAs teaching classes.
My attitude: caveat emptor.
December 19th, 2007 at 10:49 pm
From the theatrical perspective, living in the city is theatre. The theatre of survival. Of cannibalism, corruption, licentious existence, anonymity, and role playing. The city is an artificial life. A life of plasticity, where we create magic and drama.
Though Williams may appear to be an extension of a boarding school environment, it is more like the “School of Athens” rather than the former. A creative environment without the distractions and noise of urban existence. An oasis outside of the slums of Calcutta.
If you require work-study, then there are institutions that will provide training on the job with a dollar to boot.
By the way, how was real-world bartending?
If you are of this persuasion, then I request students who can iron my cravats, iron my woolen slacks, etc. I presume you would make a fine man-servant.
Plenty of experience, real-world skills, and learning to serve the public.
Yes, humility and meekness; my kind of virtues in a student with an interest for real world experience and full time employment that is “worhtwhile” in Williamstown!
December 20th, 2007 at 9:07 am
Not shocked that Dartmouth is a big binge-drinking school, but miserable when the binge drinking overwhelms other experiences and makes it extremely difficult to forge one’s own way, taking advantage, in a community of others with similar interests, of the Outing Club, the organic farm, the sustainable food efforts, the political involvements (especially in election seasons), the Tucker Foundation, and other parts of Dartmouth that are highly touted but can be difficult to access and don’t appear, from the inside, to have the deep, widespread student involvement that Dartmouth publications and what one hears about similar opportunities at other schools would lead one to expect.