Fri 29 Feb 2008
This Chronicle of Education article from 6 years ago allows us to review the history of “tips” — significant admissions preferences for athletic excellence — and speculate on the future. Previous discussion here. Join us below.
To Morton O. Schapiro, the president of Williams College, it’s simple: “If you’re a really smart kid, and you’re serious about athletics, you’d be nuts not to think about Williams.”
As he speaks on a winter afternoon, 10 inches of snow blanket his postcard-cute campus tucked into the northwestern corner of Massachusetts. Students are trooping off to hockey, basketball, swimming, track, and wrestling practices.
Williams is one of the best liberal-arts colleges in the country, and is famous for its world-class art museums and summer theater programs. But athletics is at least as important to the ethos of this place.
The Ephs — as in Ephraim, the first name of Williams’s eponymous founder — dominate Division III of the National Collegiate Athletic Association. More than a third of Williams students compete on at least one of the 31 varsity teams, and many more play on the college’s numerous junior-varsity and club teams.
On a relatively isolated campus without fraternities or sororities, sports teams are central to the social life of the college. They also have a crucial role in Williams’s admissions process, in which barely 20 percent of those who apply are accepted. Each team gets “tips,” or places in the incoming class, for athletes who would not be admitted on the basis of their academic credentials alone.
So far, so good. The 66 tips would not be at Williams if it were not for their athletic skills. This is not true for the students in almost all other activities. The College does not give meaningful preferences to singers or musicians or WOOLF-leaders because it knows that there will be plenty of Ephs with these talents among the academic rank 1’s and 2’s whom it admits on the basis of academics alone.
Students, coaches, faculty members, and others at Williams have been debating the role of sports on campus for much of the past year, however. And now Williams is one of at least four colleges in the New England Small College Athletic Conference that has decided to cut back on the number of “athletic admits” it allows each year, starting this fall.
The conversation has been bitter at times. Nobody has accused the college’s admissions office of letting in a bunch of dumb jocks, but many coaches say their athletes are being blamed unfairly for getting into Williams when other students with better academic credentials did not.
And looming over the discussion is The Game of Life: College Sports and Educational Values (Princeton University Press, 2001), which has focused renewed attention on whether elite colleges make the same compromises larger universities do when it comes to sports.
Again, a fair description except that many (most?) professors did complain that “the college’s admissions office of letting in a bunch of dumb jocks.” Now, for some professors, anyone from a rich white family with SATs below 1200 is “dumb.” The point is that there was a real dispute about what the policy should be and that those in favor of change, like Morty, wanted to replace about 50 Ephs each year with smarter Ephs. They wanted to change the College. And they succeeded. Williams is a different place than it used to be. Is it better? Should the College move even further in this direction? My opinion is that the changes Morty et al have made were good ones and, if anything, further small steps in the same direction should be taken.
The small liberal-arts colleges in the Northeast have made a point of claiming the moral high ground in college sports for a long time now. Williams is a charter member of the New England conference, which was founded in 1971 under the philosophy that “intercollegiate athletic programs should operate in harmony with the educational mission of each institution.”
Athletes are supposed to be representative of the student body as a whole, coaches aren’t allowed to recruit off their campuses, and for most of the league’s history, NESCAC teams have not been allowed to participate in NCAA championship tournaments.
Spare a thought for the women of the 1996 lacrosse team (including Erin Burnett ‘98?), denied a shot at immortality in the NCAA tournament because President Hank Payne tried to uphold NESCAC rules. Those days are long gone.
Despite restrictions like those, however, athletics has long been ingrained in Williams’s campus culture. S. Lane Faison Jr., Whitney Stoddard, and the other art historians who made Williamstown a launch pad for many of the top curators in the profession were athletes themselves. Mr. Stoddard, for example, had been a hockey goalie during his own college days. Their students, like Kirk Varnedoe, remember them and other faculty members as avid sports fans.
“It’s a work-hard, play-hard kind of place,” recalls Mr. Varnedoe, a member of the class of 1967 who is a former senior curator of the Museum of Modern Art and a fellow at the Institute for Advanced Study, in Princeton, N.J. “It wasn’t a place where categories were hard and firm — you didn’t have to be an athlete or a student, and it was not considered unusual or weird to have a Phi Bet physics major playing football.”
Both Faison and Varnedoe have passed on to the great purple mountains in the sky. Are faculty members today as ardent as faculty of Faison’s generation? Do faculty come to watch your sports events? Tell us.
And from a numerical standpoint, sports were actually a much bigger deal then, when Williams was an all-male college, than they are now, Mr. Varnedoe says. “I think 60 or 70 percent of the students then played varsity sports at one time or another while they were in school.”
With the formation of the NESCAC — whose other members are Am-herst, Bates, Bowdoin, Colby, Connecticut, Hamilton, Middlebury, and Trinity Colleges, and Tufts and Wesleyan Universities — and the segmentation of the NCAA into three divisions in 1978, most Williams teams were confined to playing conference rivals and other small private colleges in New England.
In 1994, the rest of the NCAA discovered just how good the Ephs were. That year, the NESCAC’s presidents decided to experiment with allowing teams in sports other than football to compete in NCAA and Eastern College Athletic Conference postseason events.
Two years later, a national athletics directors’ association began awarding the Sears Directors’ Cup as a sort of all-sports trophy in Division III. Williams won the inaugural trophy. And the next one, in 1997. And in the 1999, 2000, and 2001 academic years. In 2001, 17 of Williams’s 31 varsity teams finished in the top 20 in the country, with the experiment in postseason play having been extended three times. Only four teams had losing records on the year.
And has that changed much? Admissions are different now then they were 10 years ago. Has the performance of Eph teams suffered? Note that (former) baseball Coach Dave Barnard cried wolf on this topic three years ago, worrying that mens teams in sports like baseball and basketball could not compete in NESCAC under the new regime. Yet, both baseball and basketball were NESCAC champions in 2007.
A strange part of these discussions has always been the assumption among current Ephs that Williams has always been an athletic powerhouse. Untrue! Read the Report on Varsity Athletics. Williams has always been an active place, a college where most people go off and do something sporty in the afternoon, but sports teams were very average, at least through the mid-80s. The winning percentage for all teams was 54% for 81-86.
Although the football team does not compete in postseason championships, its head coach, Dick Farley, has run up a 101-16-3 record over the past 15 seasons, including an eight-game undefeated streak last fall.
“We compare ourselves to being the Stanford of Division III,” says Mr. Farley, who was an assistant coach for 15 years before taking over the football program, and also coaches outdoor track. “We’ve got kind of a watered-down version here.”
Some watered-down version: The Ephs had 93 players in 2000-1, nearly 10 percent of the male student body. Mr. Farley’s teams have not had a losing record since that 1987 season, and have cultivated an uncanny skill in breaking the hearts of the Amherst team.
The two squads play the last game of their seasons against each other every year, in front of relatively huge crowds (12,000 last fall) and on a cable network that beams the game by satellite to scores of Amherst-Williams alumni events around the country. The Ephs have beaten the Lord Jeffs in 13 of the past 15 games.
“God only knows how we’ve won some of those games,” admits Mr. Farley. “It’s gotten to the point where I feel bad for them.”
You have to love Farley because he tells it straight. I wish that I could say the same for all other senior folks at Williams. Note that the football team only has 75 members now. That hardly seems like a good idea. If someone wants to play football, then Williams ought to find a way to let him play. Why not have a freshmen team that would play local high schools? Why not more (any?) games for the JV? There is nothing wrong with rules limiting the number of players allowed to suit up for varsity games. (If anything, it always seems sort of ludicrous to see so many extra guys standing around.) But, just as Williams tries to find places for women who want to play JV lacrosse, even if they aren’t very good at it, we ought to find places for all our would-be football players.
Selective academic institutions with strong sports programs admit some athletes whose academic credentials would not necessarily get them in otherwise. Usually, admissions directors say they do this on the theory that athletic accomplishments indicate leadership ability, a sense of discipline, and other praiseworthy qualities. It just happens to be a nice coincidence when those athletes win games and championships.
At Williams in the early 1980s, Mr. Farley remembers, admissions officers said they didn’t want to be the ones making decisions about how to measure athletic accomplishments in the admissions process. Coaches were frustrated at spending months recruiting a prospect, only to have him or her come up short in April. Mr. Farley says.
Williams’s athletics director at the time, Bob Peck, came up with a new way of doing things: Each coach got a certain number of athletes they could designate as being worth admitting, even if they don’t quite measure up academically.
“Until they put in the tip system, it was tough sledding in football and ice hockey,” says Mr. Farley. “The alums at the time were kind of upset about it, and we in the athletics department were told, ‘We’re going to have a competitive situation here, and why should the admissions guy be in the position of having to evaluate goaltenders?’”
There is a great senior thesis to be written about the origins of the tips system. Was this really due to Bob Peck? Was Williams really the first school to do this in an organized fashion? Good stuff. The tip system clearly makes the system more efficient. We anti-tips folks are not against allowing coaches a big say, we are against having standards that are too low. If a kid has 1400 SATs and is in the top 5% of his high school class, then I am happy to let Farley have him.
Yet the whole notion that alumni were “kind of upset” is just gibberish. Maybe the dozen or so former football players that Farley was in touch with were upset, but the vast majority of alumni do not care. The alums of the 50’s loved the Williams of the 80’s just as much as the alums of the 80’s love the Williams of today, even though our sports teams are much better now than they were then.
This way, coaches know which players they need, and which to give some help to in the admissions process. If a linebacker shows up 15th on his list of prospects and has scored only 1200 on his SAT, Mr. Farley says he wishes him luck in getting into another college. “We would get information back from the kid about academics and look at the numbers, and say, Let’s skip this one, or, Let’s really go after him.”
The football team gets 14 tips, while most other squads get two or three. Of course, this means that the majority of Williams athletes don’t get any special help in the admissions process: In the 2001 academic year, there were 669 athletes on Ephs teams, but only 72 players were tipped.
“If we are going to give any admissions advantage because of athletics, it’s going to have to be for someone who would really have an impact,” says Richard L. Nesbitt, Williams’s admissions director. “Men’s lacrosse gets two tips a year. That’s eight kids [in college at one time], where you need 30.”
Williams coaches say this gives them a very good idea of a particular athlete’s chances in the admissions process, and they can make better decisions about which ones to recruit. Every college has some kind of system for letting in athletes, they point out; Williams’s is just a little more transparent.
30? I am no lacrosse expert, but since when do you “need 30″ players for your lacrosse team? There are only 10 starters and another 5-10 substitutes who see regular playing time. This is the sort of inaccurate talk that makes faculty not trust the admissions office to give them the straight scoop.
And just how “transparent” is Williams really? Morty showed up, decided he wanted to change the admissions policy with respect to athletics and made sure that all sorts of data was made available to various people. It was transparency for a purpose. But is Williams “transparent” as a matter of principal? Not really. Try to find the same data for URMs or international students that Morty made available for tips. You can’t find it because those admissions policies are ones that Morty likes.
The Game of Life, by James L. Shulman and William G. Bowen of the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation, touched off a debate at Williams and other prestigious colleges because, it said, smaller-college athletes tend to cluster in certain majors, to do worse in their classes, and to end up in a narrower range of professions than nonathletes. The authors performed a similar study last summer specifically for the NESCAC, which yielded similar results.
The implication is that having too many athletes on a campus can create a less-academic atmosphere, with too many individuals with a particularly goal-oriented outlook. Students at Williams, athletes and nonathletes alike, say they don’t believe their classes are being dumbed down, but the large proportion of athletes definitely has an effect on campus life.
“A lot of people compare it to a fraternity and sorority system,” says Mark Robertson, a senior who edits the student newspaper, The Williams Record.
Yeah, maybe. But the football players hung out together a lot in the 80s and the 50s as well. Perhaps former football captain Frank Uible ‘57 could tell us some stories. The real problem with this sort of talk is that no one describes what Williams should look like. Should football players be no more likely to be friends with other football players than they are with non-football players? Should they be just as likely to live with an athlete than a non-athlete?
Someone smart like Robertson could probably describe a reasonable vision for Williams, a vision in which sports matter but not too much. Once we have that, we could start to collect data to see where we are and where we are going.
But none of that (really) happened 6 years ago, nor has it happened since. And that’s because no one in power really cares enough to do anything about that. Morty wanted two things: less stupid athletes and less student self-segregation (all the helmet-head in Tyler, all the blacks in Brooks). He accomplished both.
“For a lot of people, that’s their prime affiliation, and it seems like it’s stronger than other kinds of student groups. Theater might be an exception.
“It certainly controls the social schedule. Thursday night always has a lot of stuff going on, but Friday night, with games the next day, there’s not so much to do.”
Mr. Robertson and others say they know plenty of people who have a wonderful time at Williams without ever going near a gym, and they all count both athletes and nonathletes among their friends.
But many teams become cultures unto themselves: “If you get a critical number of football players in a house, nobody else is going to want to live there,” says Joe Masters, co-president of the College Council.
I think that I would rather live with a bunch of football players than with Joe Masters.
In the classroom, Williams’s hockey captain says some of his teammates are defensive about playing a “helmet sport” — male hockey, football, and lacrosse players are often singled out in this debate.
“Some guys don’t want to wear hockey jackets in class,” says Andrew Beasley, a senior. “But I’ve always felt like I can walk in, work hard, and I’ve never had an issue. I’ve never shied away from that, but some guys are looking for an excuse — it’s like, ‘he hates me because I’m a hockey player.’”
Some use it as an excuse but some of right: more than one faculty member believes — correctly! — that elite athletes, especially on high profile mens teams, are less smart than non-athletes. Does that color their grading? Tough to know. The simple solution is for all faculty to grade students in the blind, as Joe Cruz does. (If you don’t do this, you are a bad person.)
Julie Greenwood, the women’s tennis and squash coach, says the debate has turned poisonous by causing athletes to question their own academic abilities, compared with their peers.
“My feeling is that we’re going about this as if we’re doing something wrong,” says Ms. Greenwood, a 1996 graduate of Williams.
“By exposing tips, it’s undermining the daily reality of what you see as a wonderful experience for talented and passionate kids, to feel like the job you’re doing isn’t understood. … I can’t help thinking that when people write opinion [pieces] about dumb jocks, it can’t help but inform their opinions of themselves.”
Williams officials insist that the tip system doesn’t allow them to recruit athletes who would really compromise the college’s standards, though for privacy reasons they would not disclose the standardized-test scores or the college grade-point averages of athletes and nonathletes, or of athletes admitted through the tip system and other students.
Wonder why Morty picked Julie Greenwood to be on the Althletics Committee instead of say Dick Farley or Dave Barnard? Now you know. A wise president picks the members of his committee on the basis of what he wants the committee to conclude.
According to U.S. News & World Report, the middle 50 percent of Williams’s students had SAT scores that ranged from 1300 to 1510 last year, with 84 percent of freshmen placing in the top 10 percent of their high-school classes.
“We’re doing it with exactly who we should be,” says Harry C. Sheehy, Williams’s athletics director and formerly the men’s basketball coach. “What does ‘representative of the student body’ mean? If the SAT is the gold standard, that’s one thing, but if it’s the total package, that’s another.”
Williams officials make no apologies for the way they attract and retain athletes. However, they’ve been part of a NESCAC-wide effort this year to reexamine the emphasis that member colleges place on athletics, partly as a result of the Bowen and Shulman study.
“Total package” is just coach talk for, “Yeah, the kid has bad scores, poor grades and did not take very challenging courses in high school, but he sure can shoot from outside the arc!”
Williams, Amherst, and Wesleyan all agreed to cut their tips to 66 per year. For Williams, this decreased the number of recruits by six, from 72. Bowdoin also has announced plans to reduce athlete admissions, without being so specific.
That’s an appropriate move, according to Mr. Schapiro. It reduces the importance given to sports slightly, but doesn’t change anything about how Williams views athletics in the admissions process. And Mr. Nesbitt says that taking 24 tipped athletes out of the college over four years will make a noticeable difference in the student body.
Note it is not mainly the decrease in tips that matters. The issue is how smart tips have to be and how other categories (URMs and legacies) are handled within the system. See Barnard for details.
The simplest way to think about these changes is to estimate how many students in the class of 2011 would not be here if the policies from the late 1990’s were still in place. I think that the answer is at least 50.
The debate over athletics admissions has spread beyond the small colleges of New England. Athletics directors in the Ivy League are studying their own admissions practices, and may well recommend reducing squad sizes in several sports.
“We’ve been asked by the presidents to explore the possibility of a reduction in recruiting numbers,” said Robert L. Scalise, Harvard University’s athletics director. “The AD’s are doing just that, and will have a series of meetings this spring to explore the feasibility and unintended consequences of any reduction, and we’ll present our recommendations to the presidents later in the spring.”
At Williams, meanwhile, the Ephs are winning the race for the 2002 Sears Directors’ Cup in Division III already. Many more athletes and nonathletes alike will visit the secluded campus this year and fall in love with it. And Mr. Schapiro, the president, will continue taking his young daughters to basketball games and tennis lessons, and most likely will remain just as committed to sports here. As long as the sports are kept in perspective.
“I don’t think there’s any question about our priorities,” he says. “We don’t have alumni confusing excellence on the playing field with excellence in the classroom.”
True enough.
February 29th, 2008 at 7:05 am
Excuse me. I just remembered that in just a few seconds I have a root canal appointment for which I must leave.
February 29th, 2008 at 10:07 am
Excuse me as well. I’m thinking about calling up tech support and seeing whether I can spend the day voyaging between hold, dropped calls, and redialing, spiced up by a few ships-passing-in-the-night exchanges with people in far off lands.
If that doesn’t work, I’ll go downstairs and shuffle around on the rug in the elevator lobby before experimenting with how far I can hold my finger from the elevator button and still get that fun self-tasering jolt of static electricity to arc.
Happy Leap Day.
February 29th, 2008 at 11:22 am
As long as the subject of football in the fifties has more or less appeared in the request to Frank (who graciously punted), I pass along this recent recollection from Bill Evans QB ‘56 :
” I was so slow that when I carried the ball, I was often flagged for delay of game”.
Yard by Yard in Hood River.
February 29th, 2008 at 11:26 am
From FM aka ‘Sucker’:
David, First of all, I want to commend you for welcoming the new basketball admit without making him the poster boy for this rant. That was as it should be.
Now, I am going to try and avoid the whole hook while taking a few nips out of your gigantic piece of bait.
#1. “The 66 tips would not be at Williams if it were not for their athletic skills. This is not true for the students in almost all other activities.”
On one of my recent visits, I met a wonderful foreign student for which english was an obvious second language. However, this student had special math skills; accomplishments, that he felt had “tipped” him in. And remember, time spent developing athletic skills does not add to a student’s GPA or enhance test scores. If anything, the time needed for sports may jeopardize transcript enhancement.
——————-
#2.”The college does not give meaningful preferences to singers or musicians or WOOLF-leaders because it knows that there will be plenty of ephs with those talents among the academic rank 1s and 2s whom it admits on the basis of academics alone.”
Again, almost all of these endeavors enhance a transcript in a traditional way by raising GPA and/or community hours etc.
———————
#3. “If a kid has 1400 SAT’s and is in the top 5% of his high school class, then I am happy to let Farley have him.”
From what I hear, this is the majority of the athletes. The small percentage that don’t fall into this category couldn’t possibly be enough to justify the endless ranting on this subject.
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#4. “smaller-college athletes tend to cluster in certain majors, to do worse in their classes, and to end up in a narrower range of professions than non-athletes.”
If there is any truth to this, then perhaps their academics suffer because of the endless hours devoted to practice and games.
And as for their “narrow range of professions”? “Narrow” is a judgement; a ‘narrow-minded’ one at that.
And why don’t you do a little research into college athletes (Williams caliber academically) and later success?
————————
#5. “…that elite athletes, especially on high profile mens teams, are less smart than non-athletes.”
Stupid and discriminatory remark.
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#6.”…causing athletes to question their own academic abilities…”
This is the real crime here. And EphBlog contributes to it in a big way. It is heartbreaking to me that these bright, qualified students are made to feel like less.
Pathetic, really.
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#7. “If the SAT is the gold standard, that’s one thing, but if its the total package, that’s another.”
The individual is the package. And athletic accomplishment along with the qualifications needed to get into a school like Williams, is an impressive package.
And to wrap up what may be a record-breaking comment for me:
None of this, my rant and yours, would be necessary, if everyone would just recognize the value of athletics, not just in the life skills and character traits it produces in the individual, but in how it helps to create a diverse, spirited and rich campus life.
P.S. Please don’t feel you need to reply. I am going to work anyway and won’t be able to retort.
February 29th, 2008 at 12:30 pm
FM: Re “#6.’…causing athletes to question their own academic abilities…’
“This is the real crime here. And EphBlog contributes to it in a big way.”
Not only EB, but also a portion of the 50% of Ephs who aren’t athletes and are reluctant to acknowledge “how it helps to create a diverse, spirited and rich campus life.” It should work both ways.
(Of course it may be in the non-athletes’ self-interest to be supportive only of certain “other” types of diversity to the exclusion of this one. And woe to those who point this out.)
February 29th, 2008 at 12:35 pm
[quote]On one of my recent visits, I met a wonderful foreign student for which english was an obvious second language. However, this student had special math skills; accomplishments, that he felt had “tipped” him in. [/quote]
Your wonderful foreign student friend obviously has no clue what the term athletic tip means.
The Math Department at Williams College is not given “x” number of slots that they have sole discretion in filling, almost entirely outside of the admissions channels.
The Math Department at Williams College is not even given the next level of preference — the “athletic protect” list, which allows the Athletic Department to pick another 36 recruits on top of the 66 “tips”. Nor, is the Math Department asked to provide yet a third list of “likely 4 year math starters”, a list that rounds out the 150 to 155 recruited athletes in each freshman class at Williams.
February 29th, 2008 at 12:41 pm
FM did not say “Athletically tipped him in,” she said “‘tipped’ him in.”
The art, music and theater departments certainly indicate their preferences for the admission of certain students. And many of the athletically gifted students are at the same time academic 1s and 2s.
Or so.
February 29th, 2008 at 12:42 pm
Actually, “the real crime” is that by over-emphasizing athletics (the largest athletic budget and highest percentage of athletes of any DIV III school), Williams opens the door to questioning the role of athletics at the College.
I can’t imagine anyone connected with Williams objecting with the idea that the College should have a solid varsity sports program, as long as that program is in keeping with, and proportional to, the College’s academic mission.
The door gets opened when athletics dominate the admissions process (as is currently the case) and the campus culture (as is currently the case).
February 29th, 2008 at 12:53 pm
“The door gets opened when athletics dominate the admissions process (as is currently the case) and the campus culture (as is currently the case).”
And you, of course, have the inside track on this. It’s only dominant because you choose to make it so (as a non-student and non-athlete). To argue that the Williams athletic program is not “in keeping with, and proportional to, the College’s academic mission” is so much hot air.
Isn’t there an athletics discussion on the Swarthmore forum begging for your participation, hwc?
February 29th, 2008 at 1:19 pm
hwc:
The foreign student didn’t use the term “tip”, but indicated to me that he felt some of his accomplishments outweighed his weaknesses, thus allowing him admission.
And as for “The door gets opened when athletics dominate the admissions process (as is currently the case) and the campus culture (as is currently the case)
This is your ‘opinion’, not fact. And it seems to be an opinion based on a deep dislike for Williams and athletes.
It has all the appearances of a deep-seated grudge.
February 29th, 2008 at 1:20 pm
They had their discussion in December 2000, when the Board of Managers decided that it was inappropriate to give the Athletic Department the 30% of freshmen admissions slots the coaches insisted they needed to support the existing teams.
The Board of Managers agreed to allocate 15% of the freshmen slots to recruited athletes. They addressed the discrepency between the allocated 15% and the requested 30% by discontinuing the football program, which had been consuming the lion’s share of the athletic tips.
Football is really the elephant in the living room when it comes to small liberal arts colleges and athletics. In a Title IX co-ed environment, the shear size of the men’s football program relative to the size of the student body, creates unreconcilable tensions in terms of low-band admissions, allocation of athletic tips, and so forth.
Keep in mind that the small college athletic model evolved at a time when there were no female sports teams (and usually no female students, period). I don’t think small colleges, in general, have ever sat down and really considered the full implications of doubling the number of sports teams (Title IX coed issues) without culling some of the traditional teams. This is how an academically-focused college like Williams ended up putting disproportionate emphasis on athletics. It wasn’t a concious policy decision, but rather an unintended consequence of the transition to a coed campus. I was there. There was much discussion about what the college would need to do to accommodate women. Not much of it focused on the long-term impact of women’s athletics.
BTW, this is an example of the kind of issue that is completely entwined with the representation of males and females on the board of a college, a topic discussed here recently. Swarthmore would have never considered dropping football if its board had been 80% men and 20% women, even though it was an obvious “no-brainer” solution to an array of issues.
February 29th, 2008 at 1:24 pm
Chicago has always had a cool approach to football. When Chicago was still a struggling new college and few people knew about it, it hired Amos Alonzo Stagg and became a competitive Big 10 football school. After it had proved itself in fotball, it simply abolished it under Robert Hutchins and became perhaps the best college in the world for nerds. Recently it started palying football again on a completely bush level. Who know it may beat out Harvard one of these days for a Nobel prize because it took some bright nerd who would never have gotten to play football at a school that is so uptight over beating Yale.
February 29th, 2008 at 1:26 pm
Uhh, no…actually it is fact.
30% of every freshman class at Williams is recruited athletes, specifically tagged by the Athletic Department as “likely 4-year varsity athletes”.
If that is not “dominating” the admissions process, I don’t know what would be. The percentage dwarfs all other special talent categories by miles.
Note, this does not include “walk-on” type athletes that are supposed to be the conceptual backbone of the orginal Div III sports model. This 30% is only students whose application folders have been specifically tagged by the Athletic Department as likely 4-year varsity athletes.
February 29th, 2008 at 1:30 pm
“…this is an example of the kind of issue that is completely entwined with the representation of males and females on the board of a college.”
My gosh, hwc, this ^ is an example of a ‘dated’ and dare I say, ’sexist’ point of view… almost admirable in the myriad of ways it accomplishes both.
February 29th, 2008 at 1:33 pm
It’s neither dated nor sexist. They whole point of having gender diversity on a college board is that men and women may bring different perspectives on the appropriate priorities of an elite college.
February 29th, 2008 at 1:38 pm
hwc,
You do yourself and your case no good when you spout nonsense.
It is stupid to call many of these student “recruited athletes.” This 30% figure includes valedictorians from Andover with 1600 SATs. Some/many “4-year varsity athletes” would have gotten into Williams even if they did not play sports. Indeed some turned down Harvard for Williams. By including these in your total, you muddy the waters in a way that makes everyone question your good faith.
It is fine to talk about the 66 tips as students who would not have gotten in without athletics. It is reasonable to talk about “protects” — the 34 (?) students with high (1-3?) academic ranks — as benefiting since their odds of admissions increases from 50% (or whatever) to 100% once the coach gives them a nod. But these are students who, just looking at their grades/scores, are indistinguishable from the rest of the class.
But that is just 20% of the class. By citing a 30% figure, you are purposely lying to the EphBlog community. Please stop.
February 29th, 2008 at 1:49 pm
Per #13:
The numbers are one thing, the way you look at them and spin them is based on your ‘opinion’.
It is your ‘opinion’ that the athletes upset the “balance” and create a negative campus life.
And they aren’t a bunch of slouches. They are bright, accomplished students, taking on the same workload that all Williams students take on while simultaneously committing huge amounts of time and passion to something they love, which also happens to brings loads of pleasure to the campus. I would think that the tips are mostly to insure certain team positions are filled.
What the heck is your problem with this? It really seems irrational; like a grudge.
Dang! I really need to get some work done.
February 29th, 2008 at 1:51 pm
I’m using the College’s own designation. They feature this number each year in their press release announcing each incoming class. It’s always right at 30% (another example of what I mean when I say that Nesbitt gets the class the College wants).
The mechanism is simple. 30% of each class consists of application folders tagged by the athletic department as being likely 4-year varsity athletes. These are applicants who have been through the recruiting process and are known to the athletic department.
I’ve never said that all of these athletes wouldn’t get accepted without sports. In fact, I have over the years, on this blog, been quite specific about the breakdown of these recruited athletes:
1. 66 “tips” with below average academic qualifications. Would never get into Williams without sports.
2. 36 “protects” with roughly average academic qualifications. Would be unlikely admits without sports.
3. 50 (or so) recruited athletes with academic records (1s and 2s) that qualify them for admissions with no “tip” or “protect” from the athletic department. Would get accepted at high rates based on academic qualifications without sports.
February 29th, 2008 at 1:51 pm
Details in the Report on Varsity Athletics.
Again, hwc, I think that the actual policies are damning enough from your point of view to not require nonsense. We all want AR 1 and 2 who are also 4 year athletes to be admitted. Even you agree, right? Also, if an African American applicant is also an athlete does that “count” as an athletic admissions?
See Barnard for further details. And note that, over the last five years, the standards for tips and protect have gone up significantly.
What matter is: How different are the grades/scores of athletes from the grades/scores of non-athletes? Whatever the right answer, there is no doubt that the difference is much less than it was a decade ago.
February 29th, 2008 at 1:54 pm
Sorry, that last post came before I saw your reply.
Good, it seems we agree on the facts. So, stop using a 30% figure which includes both other sorts of preferences (i.e., URM) and AR 1’s and students who may have had zero contact with coaches and are only tagged after admission.
Instead, focus on the 20% figure of tips and protects. That is where the real policy dispute is. And, again, I am probably closer to your point of view on this than many others here.
February 29th, 2008 at 1:56 pm
Per #15
Oh yes, I agree with the idea that gender diversity is important to a college board.
But your comment indicating the ‘way’ that women would vote, was dated and sexist. For heavens sake, at this very moment, you are arguing with women who are of the opinion that athletics are valuable to the campus. Hello!?!
February 29th, 2008 at 2:02 pm
But, the 30% number is important, in fact key, in determining the relative impact of recruited athletes. Again, this is the percentage of each freshman class that has gone through the recruiting process and been identified by the athletic department as “likely 4-year varsity athletes at Williams”.
This number is obviously important to Williams. The College includes the number in each year’s incoming class press release. With this number, it is possible to better understand the nature of a college’s athletic program. For example, compare this number to the actual number of varsity athletes for a sense of the role of “walk-on” players.
February 29th, 2008 at 2:06 pm
“But that is just 20% of the class.”
And that means that it does not “dwarf() all other special talent categories by miles.”
Outstanding and high achievement in any of a number of other “categories” (artistic and academic fields among them) are, rightfully so, considered to be the “tips” that ultimately influence whether the admission committee at Williams — or any other selective institution — extends an offer for any individual to join the community as a valuable (and ideally, valued) member.
February 29th, 2008 at 2:07 pm
And note how much the definition of “protect” has changed from what then till now. Barnard reports:
So, protects are much more likely to be AR 1-2 students now then they were before Morty tightened the policy. Also:
I have never heard anyone claim otherwise. Morty has made athletics count for much less than it used to. It may still count for too much, but we should all recognize that much has changed.
But I also don’t want to see false statements from the other side. FROSH mom, in good faith, claims that “I would think that the tips are mostly to insure certain team positions are filled.”
Untrue! We are talking about (at least) 330 bodies here, not just a policy which ensured that the field hockey team has a goalie. And, on almost all these teams, there are back-ups that would have preferred to be starters and students who were cut who would have liked to make the team.
February 29th, 2008 at 2:12 pm
I don’t have any problem with the way tips and protects are handled at Williams.
Given the priority the College has placed on varsity athletics, I can’t imagine a better approach than the “tip” and “protect” system. It works pretty well.
I disagree with the strategic choice the College has made to emphasize varsity athletics as I believe that emphasis has consequences across a range of campus community issues. However, those strategic priorities are working well for Williams, so I doubt anyone cares about my opinion. I can’t figure out why the College doesn’t embrace its identity. I’ve never understood the defensiveness.
February 29th, 2008 at 2:15 pm
Of course, not many (none?) of the varsity athletes are one-dimensional, and can certainly be considered to have been “tipped” by the admission committee for their leadership, musical or artistic talent, and academic gifts and achievement, among other considerations (race/ethnicity, socio-economic status, etc.)
February 29th, 2008 at 2:17 pm
Shutting off computer…going to work.
‘Aparent’: you say it better and more succintly than I do, anyway. I am extremely weak in the ‘facts and stats’ department, which is hwc’s modus operandi… and his way of hiding that old, dull, axe.
February 29th, 2008 at 2:19 pm
aparent,
You are just as bad as hwc!
You are twisting the language. There is nothing like the “tips” process for artists. Nothing. One easy way to see that is to look at the 50 members of the class of 2008 who are most artistic (either in high school or now that they are at Williams), students in the BSO, who star in theater productions, win art prizes and so on. Those students have academic credentials that are indistinguishable from other students. They have the same, on average, scores/grades — both in high school and at Williams. They get no meaningful preference in admissions.
To be specific, if you had them go through the admissions process but removed their artistic accomplishments, 90% of them would be admitted anyway. The same is not true for tips or URMs.
February 29th, 2008 at 2:22 pm
Well even using the 30 percent figure (and I agree with David that 20 is far more accurate) I don’t see how that “dominates” campus culture when it is LESS THAN A THIRD OF CAMPUS. In fact since Williams has a bigger student body than all but one NESCAC school, and higher standards for its tips / protects than anyone else in NESCAC, and less total tips and protects than many other schools in NESCAC, you could argue that athletics are a far less dominant force at Williams than any other school in the conference. We’ve been through this over and over, and you consistently refuse to address a point I have made many, many times: the reason Williams has such a high percentage of varsity athletes is NOT because of more low-band admits than other schools, but rather because of a few ENORMOUS rosters of individual sports teams (cross country, track and field, swimming and diving, and crew) that require almost no admissions concenssions and where the students have never been accused of creating cultural problems on campus or underperforming academically. You constantly act as if Williams is an outlier.
Also, your athletic spending figures are completely bogus, as we’ve been through before. These numbers can be massages in all sorts of ways, you support only those which support your demonstrably inaccurate argument that Wiliams disproportionately supports athletics relative to its peers. There are all sorts of fomulations of this, some of which I’ve cited in that past (including from Sports Illustrated) that put Williams towards the BOTTOM in terms of per capita spending. And none of those figures account for spending on facilities, where Williams really lags. Just compare the new hockey arenas and weight rooms and playing fields at Trinity and Midd and Amherst and Bowdoin to Williams’ relatively outdated facilities.
If you want to argue that NESCAC schools and UAA schools and other elite Div III schols should abolish TIPS And foregoe competitive athletic endeavors at the D-III level, that is fine and certainly a fair argument to make. But stop drawing the false distinction of Williams being different from its peers in this regard. Of any northeast D-III school outside of MIT and Swarthmore, the FACT is that Williams has the fewest TIPS and the highest minimum standards for those TIPS of anyone, and a much smaller percentage of tipped / protected athletes among the student body as a whole. You are using a portion of the student body — acadmically indistinguishable individual sports athletes — who don’t have anything to do with the problems you associate with athletics to argue something based on misleading use of percentages.
February 29th, 2008 at 2:23 pm
“I can’t figure out why the College doesn’t embrace its identity. I’ve never understood the defensiveness.”
What makes you think “the College doesn’t embrace its identity”? As you yourself noted, it’s in the literature.
“I’ve never understood the defensiveness.”
And you of all posters should understand that “defensiveness” is a response to an offensive action, or attack.
How obtuse and disingenuous.
February 29th, 2008 at 2:23 pm
This is the kind of disingenuous shell game that college athletic departments play. It drives me crazy.
Of course, SATs are higher. They recentered the damn scores just before “the new millenium”. SAT scores at colleges like Williams jumped 50 points instantly, just from the recentering. Figure in additional factors and most of these elite colleges have seen their median SATs increase 75 to 100 points over the last decade. So to argue that standards are tougher for athletes because their median SAT scores are higher is just a bunch of bull.
How do you know when an Athletic Director is lying about admissions? When his lips are moving.
February 29th, 2008 at 2:25 pm
This is just gibberish. By definition, anyone that a coach needs to use a tip for — and their is a fair amount of back-and-forth negotiation with admissions about who counts as a tip versus protect — is someone who would not have been admitted otherwise. These are 66 students who would not have gotten into Williams. Period. This is the largest single admissions preference (at least if you split URMs into separate categories).
To be specific, if you are someone who would have been a tip but you blow out your knee in October of your senior year in high school so that you can’t play at Williams, you would never, ever be admitted. Vague of talk of “leadership” just confuses the issue.
Again, I rant on about all this because it is important for all sides to know what the actual policy is.
February 29th, 2008 at 2:30 pm
(dkane: My use of “tips” in quotation marks indicate general “hooks” if you will, not TIPS or simply tips as otherwise used here.)
February 29th, 2008 at 2:31 pm
Surely, you aren’t suggesting that all the musicians and artists at Williams had substandard academic qualification? I assume you would agree that many of them have outstanding academic qualifications more than sufficient for admission to Williams, right?
So, if we are going to count musicians “who would have gotten in anyway”, shouldn’t we also count athletes “who would have gotten in anyway” if we want to compare apples to apples.
That is precisely why I use the 30% figure. If I don’t use the total figure provided by the college for recruited athletes, then I am in the position of making assumptions about how many “would have gotten in anyway”. Because I know how academically qualified many Williams athetes are, I don’t care to dive into those assumptions.
February 29th, 2008 at 2:33 pm
Just to support my prior post, there are about 100 members of the varsity cross country team. Only 14 of those can actually count in any given meet. HWC, would you prefer to reduce those rosters to 30 total to reduce the percentage of athletes on campus to a more acceptable level? We can do the same with swimming and diving, track, and crew, and get it down to 30 percent if that would make you happy …
February 29th, 2008 at 2:39 pm
hwc,
Barnard has no reason to lie to us. The SATs were recentered in 1995. The change he describes from 2000 is all in the basis of the new scores, and was driven by Morty.
It is a more subtle point how this interacts with general changes in the overall student population. You really think that the SAT scores at Williams among non-athletes are up “75 to 100 points over the last decade?” I will take the other side of that bet, but you know where to find that data . . .
February 29th, 2008 at 2:41 pm
Jeff Z:
Actually, the cross-country track team would probably not be where I would focus my attention if I were a college president trying to wrestle with athletics priorities.
In general, the cross-country track teams get zero “tips” or “protects”. Cross-country track probably comes the closest to the original concept of Div III sports as a walk-on student-athlete endeavor.
February 29th, 2008 at 2:55 pm
FM/Sucker here again.
“Surely you aren’t suggesting that all the musicians and artists at Williams had substandard academic qualifications.”
Unlikely…because of a point I have brought up over and over again. Those endeavors enhance a GPA and transcript in a traditional, academic sense.
Athletics don’t play into a GPA in any way. And yet take more or less the same dedication in time and effort, as music, or art.
February 29th, 2008 at 2:55 pm
Exactly my point HWC. Then stop complaining that Williams has the highest percentage of varsity athletes (and acting as if that fact is indicative of a problematic institutional prioritzation of athletics), because the reason for that is the disproportionately large individual sports teams. Compare the roster size for football, basketball, hockey, soccer, lacrosse, baseball, and softball, in the aggregate, with any other NESCAC school and they are comparable even though Williams is itself larger than most of its peers.
February 29th, 2008 at 2:59 pm
Tipping is affirmative action in practice accommodating policy. Preferential treatment is never viewed without contention, derision, and resentment. The challenges of tipping rest with you, the Alumni, the Trustees, Administration and Admissions.
Diversity, multi-culturalism, tipping and legacies play important roles in admissions. Are you suggesting that athletic tips are singled out because it accounts for our lower SAT numbers thus lowering our admissions and academic thresholds? Is this the basis for your disagreements?
February 29th, 2008 at 3:08 pm
Don’t both Middlebury, Tufts and Wesleyan all have bigger student bodies than Williams?
February 29th, 2008 at 3:09 pm
oops, forgot to delete the “both” when I thought of Wes.
February 29th, 2008 at 3:11 pm
If you include the impact of recentering in 1995, yes. I think that’s a reasonable range.
I can’t find Williams data expressed in the right terms. Since 1998 (well after recentering), Williams overall SAT’s (25th-75th percentiles) have increased from 1300-1500 to 1340-1520. So that’s probably a 30 point increase on top of recentering, but it’s hard to pin down the exact median.
I have found more precise data for Swathmore, which usually parallels Williams and Amherest data quite closely:
Median Math:
700 in 1995 (no recenter)
690 in 1995 (with recenter)
710 in 2007
Median Verbal:
650 in 1995 (no recenter)
710 in 1995 (with recenter)
740 in 2007
That’s a combined 100 point increase in median SATs since 1995. A big chunk of that is recentering. Another big chunk is the demographic bulge that has driven acceptance rates down into the teens. A third factor is probably the increased focus on SAT prep and multiple test taking in today’s admissions environment.
I don’t think the overall SATs of athletes at any of these schools has been much different than the overall SAT spread of the overall student population. Among both athletes and non-athletes, you have a range from high test scores to low test scores. Remember, recruited athletes at these schools tend to be whiter and more affluent than the overall student body. Whiter and more affluent are the two strongest correlations with higher SAT scores. In general, you would expect the recruited athletes to have higher SAT scores based on demographics alone.
February 29th, 2008 at 3:13 pm
“if we are going to count musicians ‘who would have gotten in anyway’, shouldn’t we also count athletes ‘who would have gotten in anyway’ if we want to compare apples to apples.”
What makes you think that none of the athletes are also not musicians?
(Wielding your axe has hewn a narrow field of vision indeed.)
February 29th, 2008 at 3:18 pm
FROSHMOM:
Actually, some data I’ve read (not Williams specific) is that colleges will often dip very low into academic qualifications for high-talent music admits. It’s probably the one area of admissions that can rival athletics in terms of below-average “tips”.
February 29th, 2008 at 3:20 pm
I don’t see where I have ever said they weren’t.
February 29th, 2008 at 3:23 pm
hwc,
I agree with your Williams data. (Those wanting more can look here.) Williams SAT scores have gone up by about 30 points in 10 years: 1300-1500 to 1340 — 1520 for the 25th/75th percentile. There is no reason to bother with recentering since nobody here is much interested in changes from pre-1995.
And, if you believe that standards for athletes have tightened (and no one denies this) most of that change was actually caused by the athletes. Looking at non-tips/protects, it sure seems that the Williams SAT numbers have been constant for a decade.
I agree that you need to adjust for all sorts of stuff in comparing athlete scores to non-athletes scores. I just want to be sure that we all agree on the basic facts.
February 29th, 2008 at 3:26 pm
While the remarks on Cross Country were preemptory in tone for such a feat of conditioning, it does lead to the easy comparison with its forerunner - Hare and Hounds.
DKane is the clever hare setting out his papers so that eager and earnest hounds follow him through every bit of swamp, underbrush, and and faintly marked trail.
I say this with complete respect for this master of achieving very long and tangled runs on his blog. But so much depends on us, the dogs of war set loose to snarl and snap. With the right subject presented in an off-center manner as is his mastery, we’re off!
Of course, it does seem to produce a pack of rather humorless hounds delighting in the bluster of their baying.
Woof, woof!
February 29th, 2008 at 3:33 pm
Yes, Dick, it had been rather quiet here on EB, and dkane knows his audience — such a predictable lot.
February 29th, 2008 at 3:36 pm
The reason to “bother” with recentering is that we have athletic directors trying to “sell” us on the increases in athlete SATs compared to the “old days”. I want to know what they mean by the “old days”. It has been my observation that athletic directors are very slippery with their language when discussing tips and protects and recruiting and admissions.
I have no reason to believe that standards for athletes have tightened (above and beyond the standards for the overall class). The only change has been lopping off three or four ultra-low band tips. That has miniscule impact statistically.
The problem with the Williams data is that it may be obscuring a big jump that occured between the recentered scores in 1995 and five years later in 2000. For example, not counting recentering, Swarthmore’s median SATs jumped 40 points in that five year period. I have no reason to believe that Williams and Amherst weren’t seeing similar shifts. The SAT scores tend to track very closely.
February 29th, 2008 at 3:39 pm
BTW, I totally reject the idea that the SAT scores of non-athletes at Williams have not increased over the last decade. That flies in the face of all admissions trends, especially the signficant drop in acceptance rates with the recent demographic buldge.
February 29th, 2008 at 4:03 pm
Huh? The raw data is what the raw data is. There is no doubt that the overall average is only up about 30 points. Now, it could be that the non-athlete average is up the same, or up less or up more. But every bit of evidence and every bit of testimony from all sources suggest that the athlete average is up at least 30 points. You think Barnard is lying?
And, if you have any examples of a Williams athletic director saying untrue stuff, please point it out. I am happy to highlight and mock such blarney.
February 29th, 2008 at 4:18 pm
Please point me to ANY evidence that this is the case. I’ve never seen any such evidence beyond the occasional apocryphal story from a coach.
February 29th, 2008 at 4:38 pm
Barnard listed all the details. Which items in his story do you not believe? You don’t think that the number of tips has been lowered from 72 to 66? You don’t think that the standards for protects has been raised?
And, if testimony from a coach is not evidence enough, what evidence would be? Do you need to see corresponding video from actual admissions committee meetings over the last decade?
February 29th, 2008 at 4:42 pm
As for Barnard’s bellyaching about not being able to recruit low-SAT baseball players:
In Fall 1998, 48 Williams freshmen scored below 600 on the SAT math test.
In Fall 2007, 38 Williams freshmen scored below 600 on the SAT math.
Are we really to assume that all ten of these were baseball players?
February 29th, 2008 at 4:49 pm
That’s all window dressing because the dividing line between a “tip” (below average) and a “protect” (roughly average) is so slippery. Barnard himself said that nobody in the NESCAC pays any attention the 66 limit on priority admits. The only thing he didn’t add is that neither does Williams. (See 33 “protects”.
Simple. The median SAT scores for the recruited (or “A” attribute) athletes (130 to 150 freshmen) in each entering class.
February 29th, 2008 at 4:57 pm
“In Fall 2007, 38 Williams freshmen scored below 600 on the SAT math”
Only 36 students who entered in Fall 2007 had SAT Math scores of below 600 (from Williams’s Common Data Set 2007-08).
For someone who lives for statistics, you really ought to be more careful (this is the only one I took the trouble to check).
February 29th, 2008 at 5:02 pm
And hwc, CC probably has a larger audience for your blatherings. Why aren’t you posting more of your “Williams facts” there?
February 29th, 2008 at 5:04 pm
7% of 540 enrolled freshmen is 37.8 students scoring below 600 on the MATH SAT.
I rounded the 37.8 up to 38.
February 29th, 2008 at 5:14 pm
You failed to take note of the fact that only 95% (515/540) submitted SAT scores — but I’m sure you know the other 25 students’ scores because you know everything.
And this only illustrates the sad truth that, although you may think that what you spout is incontestable and absolute gospel, it only serves to show you as that much more pitiable (and flawed).
February 29th, 2008 at 5:19 pm
“In general, you would expect the recruited athletes to have higher SAT scores based on demographics alone.”
I question this for a couple of reasons.
There is a high percentage of public school grads at Williams now, (around 58% of the class of 11, from what I hear) Public school students, in general, are less likely to have the counselor emphasis on, and funds for, prep courses and multiple testing. And high-achieving student-athletes are even less likely to fool around trying to raise their SATs by 30 to 100 points. They not only have different circumstances, they also have a different mind-set, which is very difficult to put into words. It has to do with a confidence and acceptance of who they are and what they have to offer. That is, until they get a dose of the “athletes are sub-standard” humple pie that EB and ‘other sources’ dole out to them.
Out of curiosity, what is your point in bringing up raised SATs? And why all the emphasis on 100 points or less?
February 29th, 2008 at 5:20 pm
You are kidding, right? You are busting my balls because I did the math for both years based on the overwhelming majority of students who submit SAT scores?
February 29th, 2008 at 5:24 pm
Actually, my point is that the median SAT scores of the 150 or so recruited athletes in each freshman class is probably very close to the median for the overall freshmen class. I don’t think there’s much difference.
Further, I suspect that both athletes and non-athletes contribute about the same to the overall increase in SAT scores at Williams.
DKane is arguing that the athletes’ SAT scores have increased disproportionately relative to the non-athletes. I have seen no evidence to suggest that. I’m not really sure what point he’s trying to make.
February 29th, 2008 at 5:37 pm
“I did the math for both years”
The fact remains that your “doing” of the math, and the results, were both flawed and incorrect. Since you consider this to be of no consequence, of course all your other citations are suspect as well.
February 29th, 2008 at 6:36 pm
Now that EphBlog has taken its periodic physic and allowed it to work, do you all feel better? Milk of magnesia would have yielded both the same eupepsia and also the same byproduct.
February 29th, 2008 at 8:01 pm
hwc claims:
You’re just being silly now. You think that Admissions Director Richard Nesbitt was lying when he told us:
Now, this is data about the 66 tips as opposed to the 150 athletes, but unless you think that the 79 non-tips have significantly higher scores than non-athletes, the average for the 150 must be lower than that of the other 350.
I really can’t believe that you don’t already know this.
What’s more, I have no provided direct quotes from both Barnard and Nesbitt that things now are much different than they were a decade ago. Surely, the burden of proof is on you to provide some evidence, any evidence, that the athlete versus non-athlete gap has stayed the same.
And here is more from Nesbitt for those still operating under the delusion that musical talent plays a meaningful role in admissions.
Even if the College did not look at musical ability at all, the the vast majority of musicians at Williams would still be admitted. This is even more so for all other artistic fields beyond music. Jen Doleac’s thesis showed that there was no correlation between admission tags for the arts and success in the art at Williams, outside of BSO.
February 29th, 2008 at 8:55 pm
Frank:
You are right. This is the silliest argument ever. I am such a sucker.
However, this time I didn’t get heated up…so maybe there’s hope for me yet.
So, two questions:
How many times have you seen this same thread?
And, do you think David just ‘cuts and pastes’ every time he needs a day off?
February 29th, 2008 at 10:14 pm
Notice that Nesbitt is speaking with a forked tongue here by ignoring the impact of SAT recentering since 1988. That is precisely what I mean that almost everything said by colleges about athletic recruiting is “slippery”.
To give you an idea of how disingenuous Nesbitt is being. If you took the 25th percentile SAT scorers at Swarthmore this year (1360 combined), that’s 30 points higher than the average SAT scores for the entire class in 1990 (before recentering). This is essentially the comparison Nesbitt is touting when he says, “That would make the average for the tips about 20 points higher than the average for the entire class of ‘88.” He’s banking on your readers forgetting about recentering.
It doesn’t mean that the bottom quarter of Swarthmore’s class (or Williams athletic tips) are any more academically qualified than they were 20 years ago. It just means that SAT scores have increased (due mostly to recentering).
————-
As to the overall point: So what if the tips are 100 points below average? Those are the “worst” of the athletes academically. The “worst” of the non-athletes are probably 100 points below average, too.
Everything I’ve ever seen shows that the recruited varsity athletes as a whole (150 in each freshmen class at Williams) have pretty similar stats to the entire student body as a whole. Maybe a little lower, but not much. Remember, 50 or more of the recruited athletes are academic 1s or 2s and get no “tip” or “protect”. Also, female athletes as a group tend to be strong academically.
February 29th, 2008 at 10:26 pm
DKane:
Remember, a full quarter of Williams freshmen (about 135 students) scored 1340 or worse on their SATS — a full 90 points below the average of roughly 1430 for the class as a whole.
February 29th, 2008 at 10:26 pm
[T]he football team only has 75 members now. That hardly seems like a good idea. If someone wants to play football, then Williams ought to find a way to let him play. Why not have a freshmen team that would play local high schools? Why not more (any?) games for the JV? There is nothing wrong with rules limiting the number of players allowed to suit up for varsity games. (If anything, it always seems sort of ludicrous to see so many extra guys standing around.) But, just as Williams tries to find places for women who want to play JV lacrosse, even if they aren’t very good at it, we ought to find places for all our would-be football players.
Why is there a league limit on the number of student athlete participants on the football team? If a Williams student wants to play football and Williams has a football team why should the student be able to participate? Doesn’t the number of tips already sufficiently limit the number of players whose high school academic records alone would not gain them admission?
Another reason why football players will choose to not participate is because they don’t get playing time. The varsity schedule has eight games a year and no post-season play. In a close varsity contest, no more than 40-45 players will see action; therefore 30-35 students don’t see action. NESCAC is competitive football and so there are many close games where starters play and only the starters play. Some players who ride the bench instead choose to spend their falls engaged in more rewarding activities, where they do get to play, like rugby. These players are lost to the football program when they’re needed… in their junior and senior years.
The problem could be easily remedied by supporting a JV football schedule with eight games. The JV program would reduce the pressure on recruiting new football players because freshman, sophomore and some juniors would not only be engaged in the program with games but they would also be developing skills in game situations.
Finally, is football the only varsity sport in which a qualified team is not permitted to play in post-season competition, and what is the rationale for that policy? I thinking beating Amherst may be the best way to end a season but I still do not understand the rationale that says post-season competition in NESCAC is encouraged and supported unless its football and in that case, it’s strictly forbidden.
Is this a case of PC buffoonery where football is unfairly targeted as the anti-intellectual activity that must be tolerated but won’t be treated like other more acceptable sports such as basketball, cross country and crew?
February 29th, 2008 at 11:48 pm
You old folks are at it again! What a thread, 70 and counting?
Now that you have done all the MATH, are you happy?
This thread has everyone rocking the boat.
Perhaps we’ll tip this one too.
How much would that be worth?
Perhaps you should all go overboard, so we can continue down the river, that way you will all be tipping in the water, for “It’s A Long Way to Tipperary”.
March 1st, 2008 at 12:36 am
frank: They must have loaded up again at dinner.
March 1st, 2008 at 8:30 am
Hello, sports fans.
The Williams men’s swimming and diving team is competing this weekend in the 3-day NESCAC championships. They are ahead after day 1. The meet is being webcast Sat. and Sun. nights. See the team webpage.
Men’s track is competing in the all-division New Englands. They are sixth after the first day, and had a big day in the Distance Medley Relay.
Williams men’s hockey plays Middlebury today in the NESCAC quarterfinals at 4. Audio of the game will be available.
Go Ephs.
March 1st, 2008 at 9:32 am
Words:
Never have so many been wasted by so few for so little!
and without a Whit Stoddard of humor.
March 1st, 2008 at 4:23 pm
There is also something to be said for the theory that a meal is not determined by the ingredients alone, but much moreso by the skill of the chef with the skillet.
March 1st, 2008 at 9:10 pm
HEAVY!
OUR SAUCIER IS A VERY VERY SKILLED EPICUREAN.
March 1st, 2008 at 9:50 pm
Williams won half the events at the swimming meet today, and increased its NESCAC lead. Hockey got shut out. No word yet on track.
Webcasting of swimming and diving resumes Sun. at 5:15 P.M.
March 1st, 2008 at 11:07 pm
Larry,
Thanks so much for the heads up.
I was working most of the day today, but will catch the swimming tomorrow, as I so enjoyed the freestyle relay I saw last weekend.
I am a swimmer myself…and so very much appreciate the inspiration (or humility!) provided from the real thing.