Thu 17 Apr 2008
Choose Williams Over Yale
Posted by David under Admissions at 8:53 pm
It was just 4 years ago that I (successfully?) urged Julia Sendor ‘08 to choose Williams over Harvard. This thread, and the appearance of long-time reader Sam Jackson (Yale ‘11), provides an opportunity to revisit. There are scores of students that were accepted at both Yale and Williams. Around 90% of them will probably choose Yale. I think that a majority are making a mistake, that most of them would be better off if they chose Williams. I think that most students are misinformed about what life is actually like at the two schools. Perhaps we can convince Sam (and other Yalies) to participate in the conversation.
To be clear, I don’t think that Sam (and other Yalies) have a bad time or get a bad education at Yale. I just think that they would have a better time and get a better education at Williams. Let’s start by focusing on academics. (I hope that Sam will answer these questions, both for himself and the “typical” student.) For both Yale and Williams:
1) How many professors know by name the typical student? By “professors,” I mean tenured or tenure track faculty. I think that, for the average first year at Williams, this is at least 4 if not 6. At Yale, I predict 1 or 2.
2) How much written feedback does the typical student receive on his papers from professors? At Williams, this must be in the thousands of words. At Yale, very little. Most/all of the written feedback is from poorly-paid and harried graduate students. Some is from lecturers and adjuncts of various sorts. I bet Sam has received written feedback from no more than two professors in his first year.
3) How much one-on-one conversation does the typical student have with professors? At Williams, this varies dramatically by student and does depend on how often you seek out faculty members outside of class. The same is true at Yale. But the average Eph gets around 10 times more direct interaction with faculty. The average Williams student in a single tutorial exchanges more words with that one professor in a semester than Sam Jackson will exchange with all his professors put together over the course of four years.
These are, of course, rough estimates. But I did live with Harvard undergraduates for 4 years and there is no doubt that these estimates apply there. I suspect that the same is true at Yale, although things are (reportedly) better in New Haven.
The market failure is that the typical high school student has no idea about this reality. She thinks that her interactions with professors at Yale would be, more or less, just like her interactions with professors at Williams, the only difference being that the Williams professors assign the books written by the Yale professors. If students really knew what they were getting, more would choose Williams.
Contrary opinions welcome.
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April 18th, 2008 at 10:01 pm
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Sam Jackson, Yale '11 says:
Contrary (quite!) opinions will be given–tomorrow, I think, after I have had a go at my french exam which I should now be studying for–and whose class professor knows my name quite well, I might add.
Teaser comment: Part of me very much wanted to go to Williams or somewhere like it, but it was my understanding that Williams does not (nor do any small LACs, in my opinion / that of my college counselor) have the resources to support some of the kind of interdisciplinary study that I want to pursue–among other problems.
In the past I’ve written that you guys here at EphBlog kept Williams on my college list far longer than was otherwise sensible, given what I was looking for–I will try to substantiate that further, at last, and indicate more fully what it was that Williams and small LACs lacked that Yale has that I felt I needed.
I *can* see how many Yalies might be happier someplace like Williams. But I’m not sure that it’s just a market failure, and that everyone would go to Williams *if only they knew what they were missing* because that’s not been my understanding of the college process for a lot of people considering small LACs vs. people looking at other schools… it’s more complicated.
April 17th, 2008 at 9:35 pmSam Jackson, Yale '11 says:
Also, David–if you want to give me more things to argue about (please do, it is finals season, I would like more ways to procrastinate) feel free to list them, I will happily address them… I’ll try to tackle the things you mentioned in that other post as well, to the Williams ‘08 would-be Harvard student.
Again, I do not go in for the “School X is better than School Y 100%!!!” argument because that’s simplistic and is just what the higher education marketers would like to have the discourse be; it’s really not like that at all, the experiences are not reducible in that way. There are advantages and disadvantages to both schools (in either comparison) and really it is about finding individual best fit.
So, that’s why I would say that it’s worth revising your “everyone should have just gone to Williams” point, but if you want to let it stand, sure.
April 17th, 2008 at 9:39 pmdkane says:
1) I do not think that “everyone” would be better off at Williams than at Yale. When I was giving tours at Williams 20 years ago, I used to recommend that “city people” not apply. If you want to go to a different Jazz club every Friday night, Williamstown is not the place for you.
2) My rough estimate is that, of the 100 or so students that have been accepted at both Williams and Yale, 75 would be better of at Williams. This is different from, and more plausible than, making the same claim about 100 students who could get into both Williams and Yale. Most of those 100 who are city people won’t even apply to Williams, as they shouldn’t.
April 17th, 2008 at 10:24 pmYalie says:
Wow, thanks for a post that is entirely speculation about what Yale is actually like. I’m a freshman, and two of my classes have fewer than 15 students. Most of my friends know several professors pretty well…I wouldn’t expect Yale students to know AS many as Williams students by the end of freshman year, given the fact that Yale is considerably larger. However, professors here are very accessible. I’m currently taking a seminar with a very well-known professor who goes out to eat with us and grades our papers herself…it’s not some TA who does it! I have had multiple opportunities to sit down with professors and talk one-on-one.
It gets a bit annoying when people lump the Ivy League schools together and assume that because something happens at Ivy X it must also happen at Ivy Y. Yale and Harvard are very different institutions with very different atmospheres. Just because 4 Harvard students said that they had little student/professor interaction there does not in any logical way mean that the same is true for Yale. Yale is much less focused on its graduate programs than Harvard is.
I’m not saying that Williams isn’t a great school…it is, and probably some of those 90% are making a mistake. I doubt, however, that it is the majority. Just about everyone I know here loves (not just likes) the school. I have to agree with Sam…the whole “everyone should have gone to Williams” is a bit much!
April 17th, 2008 at 10:25 pmAnna Ershova says:
David,
Your post had me confused. Have you ever been to Yale?
I am a freshman at Yale. I took 4 classes last term and I am taking 5 classes this term; since I took German both terms with the same professor, there are only 8 professors total. Out of these 8 classes, 4 are lectures (by the way, I could have had more seminars, but chose to attend these truly amazing lectures instead). Three of my professors in these lecture classes *know* my name and *know* who I am (not just what my name is, but where I am from and what my academic interests are; furthermore, they say Hi when I run into them on the street). My other 4 classes are seminars and my professors know me really well. The professors from last semester sometimes e-mail me personally to let me know if there is something going on/if they came across an article or a book that may pertain to my ethnic background/academic interests. For instance, I just received an e-mail from my Politics of South and North Korea seminar from last term informing me there was an event coming up that is related to the topic of my final paper.
Only two of my lecture classes had papers for the final/midterm exam (the other two had tests). I received a lot of feedback on those papers. Yes, both were coming from TA’s, but professors said any student could discuss their papers with them. I did not feel a need to do that since I was perfectly satisfied with my grade, but some people did. One of my TA’s last term was getting his Master’s in political science/international studies (it was an international studies course) and he was brilliant! This term, my TA for a judicial politics class if from Yale Law School; not only does she know what she is teaching really well, but she is extra friendly and I have spent hours talking to her about legal issues. Also, according to her, TA’s are paid really well at Yale.
Of course, four professors in my seminars are always willing to provide feedback. In one of the courses, I had to write eight essays and a midterm (I have a final paper coming up) and I received very detailed feedback for every single one. Furthermore, every time I come to my professors’ office hours, they are more than eager to help me.
I understand this is not going to convince someone who is obviously very anti-Yale (or is it anti-Ivy League in general?). There are probably many students getting an excellent education at Williams, but no one is going to convince me there is anything better than my Yale education.
April 17th, 2008 at 10:38 pmdkane says:
Yalie,
Thanks for the comments but it would help if you were much more specific.
1) Have you taken a total of 8 classes, 4 each semester? Am I safe in assuming that at least 6 of the professors in these classes would not know your name if you ran into them on the street?
2) Tow of you classes are small. Good. But were they taught by tenured or tenure track faculty? Yale, like many large universities, has a lumpen-proletariat of graduate students, lecturers and adjuncts. Now, many of these folks are wonderful (I was one at Harvard), but they are not professors. It sounds like at least of these classes is with a professor and she grades your papers herself. Good. This is consistent with my estimate above.
3) I am ready to believe that Yale is different from Harvard. But if only 2 of your 8 professors first year know your name and only 1 grades your papers herself, then that would be similar to Harvard. (And, of course, there is probably more diversity on these metrics across departments in a given university than there is between universities themselves.)
4) I don’t doubt that most Yalies love Yale. Boola, boola! That was true twenty years ago as well. In fact, it is tough not to love college. The issue is whether most of those same students would have loved Williams more.
5) I am not sure what your “4 Harvard students” comment is in reference to. I lived in a Harvard dorm for 4 years a decade ago and have had meals with about a dozen Harvard students this year.
6) I make few claims about the “opportunities” that are available at Yale or elsewhere. I am interested in the numbers. How many minutes have you spent alone talking to professors this year? How many meals have you shared with professors? I think that the numbers for the typical Williams first year would be 5 or more times larger.
April 17th, 2008 at 10:43 pmSam Jackson, Yale '11 says:
Hey, I don’t know if you would pardon this shameless aside, but I am running a sociology research project studying Yalies’ perceptions of online privacy, the survey is @ http://www.samjackson.org/privacysurvey and I would really appreciate it if any Yalies reading, who are current Yale students, could take a moment to fill it out because it will help me not fail my class and will also give YOU a chance to win an awesome prize worth $30 (random drawing of participants). Should take 2-5 minutes to complete and will help me compare Yale to Harvard, other schools, and also inter-res-college.
David–I think accessibility vs. how much that is actualized, is an important distinction. At my small (1000) person boarding school, teachers were around alllll the time at dining hall, but most people rarely went and had meals with them, or went to their apartments, etc… this wasn’t because they were unavailable (they were! very) but often then wasn’t the desire. Now, it was nice when they would invite you home for a study session or something like that, don’t get me wrong… but I think it is important to still recognize when something is available, even if people don’t utilize it. (See my recent post on Yale’s use of its giant pile of money.)
April 17th, 2008 at 10:57 pmdkane says:
Thanks to Anna Ershova for her comments.
1) I haven’t been to Yale for 20 years. From what I know, Ivy League schools are similar in the amount of interaction that they generate between undergraduates and faculty. I am assuming that my experiences at Harvard tell me something about Yale (and Princeton and Penn and Cornell and so on). But I could easily be wrong! Hence this discussion.
2) Could you give us more details about the 4 professors in the lecture courses? How big were the lectures? I am assuming that none of the professors provided you any written feedback on your work. Is that correct? How many times, if at all, did you have conversations with those professors? How similar were the experiences of the other students in these four classes?
3) I have no doubt that there are wonderful TAs at Yale. I was a wonderful TA at Harvard. That is not the point that I am trying to make. It may also be that your TAs give better feedback that Williams professors — or Yale professors, for that matter. I leave that topic for another day. The market failure is that many/most of the people who are accepted to Yale and Williams either a) Don’t realize how much of the grading/feedback at Yale comes from TAs and/or b) Think that a similar amount comes from TAs at Williams.
4) Can you give us more details on the 4 professors in your seminars? I suspect that several are not really “professors,” i.e., not tenured or tenure-track members of the faculty. Can you comment? If you wanted to specify the courses, that would be handy, but feel free to keep the details private. And, obviously, I know that even if you have actually taken 4 faculty-led seminars this year, there is no way that this is true for a majority of your class. There aren’t that many faculty members at Yale!
5) Can you give more details on what written feedback you got from faculty in your 4 seminars? I am not that interested in whether or not they were “willing to provide feedback.” Willingness is not the metric. Did they actually provide comments on your papers? It sounds like you got Williams-typical written comments from at least one professor. That is great stuff, but also consistent with my original estimate. Indeed, the standard trick played by big schools is to have one decent seminar freshmen year which then becomes the big selling point/memory for everyone.
6) Of the 4 seminars total, were two of them German language? Language classes are a special category and it would not surprise me if the language instruction at Yale was every bit as good as that at Williams, especially in a small department with decreasing enrollment like German.
7) I am not anti-Ivy League. I have a Ph.D. from Harvard and now an Institute Fellow. I am anti-misinformation.
Thanks again for your comments.
April 17th, 2008 at 11:18 pmSam Jackson, Yale '11 says:
For someone supposedly ‘anti-misinformation’ your take on this discussion seems very much to be looking for evidence towards a predefined conclusion regardless of the distortions in narrative it might require, rather than considering other possibilities… let’s have an open conversation about the nature of education at the institutions, not some college confidential Williams v. Yale, CHANCE ME?? kind of discussion. It is NOT a black and white issue, so let’s talk about the gray.
e.g., why split hairs over tenured-ness all the time? My two most spectacular professors are visiting professors, for example. yale just reformed its tenure system, but those changes will take some time to play out. it used to be completely horrible to get tenure at yale, so we still see the lingering effects of that, since the changes are only very recent.
also, stop luring me away from studying for my french test :(
April 17th, 2008 at 11:38 pmcurrent eph says:
David, regarding your original post, I’m actually pretty sure that every single prof I had at Williams knew my name…so count me as 9/9 for frosh year. Incidentally, I’ve also never been the sort of student that made any special effort to get to know profs–in most cases my classes were small enough that it was inevitable that the prof knew my name…in the several that weren’t, the profs made a real effort to get to know the students. Sure, not all of them still remember my name, but they did at the time.
April 17th, 2008 at 11:39 pmAnna Ershova says:
Re: my lecture classes
My largest lecture was an introductory microeconomics class last term. Most students at Yale take an introductory econ class at some point (and most of those who take one take the one I took), and I was no exception. I’d say it had 300-400 students. I did talk to a (tenured and very famous)professor a couple of times, and he did not bother memorizing (or even asking for) my name. My TA was pretty bad, too. He was a Law School student and seemed very confused about economics. Out exams were basically problem sets and, of course, TA’s graded them.
I also took an introductory lecture on international studies last term. All international studies majors have to take either this one or another introductory course, which is also taught by the tenured professor. I’d say it had 50 or so students in it. It was taught by another tenured and very famous professor. I did get to talk to him quite a lot; he knew my name; said ‘Hi, Anna’ and asked something about the political situation of my country when I recently ran into him. Our mid-term and final exams consisted of writing many in-class essays; they were very time-consuming to grade and graded by TA’s. Feedback was provided and TA’s were very approachable.
I am currently taking a regular science for non-science majors astronomy class. I would say it has around 200 students (I may be wrong, it never occurred to me to do a head count). My professor (tenured; chairman of the astronomy department) knows me and I do talk to him outside the classroom a lot, even though my TA is wonderful. I was sick and couldn’t take my midterm and he was extra helpful in helping me catch up.
My smallest lecture is a class on judicial politics (I would say 50 students or so), and yes, the professor (tenured) knows me very well. I talk to her after lectures/during office hours on a regular basis if I have questions/comments; I discussed my potential sophomore adviser with her and she was very helpful. She is not going to grade our papers, but I always get more than enough feedback from my amazing TA.
April 17th, 2008 at 11:45 pmSam Jackson, Yale '11 says:
Could some Ephs please give me a rundown of intro course logistics at Williams? Intro Psych, or Econ, for example. Are there seminars, is it all lecture, what are the sizes, how many people are taking these… also describe, if possible, the most popular courses at Williams, their size, etc.
April 17th, 2008 at 11:59 pmcurrent eph says:
Sam–I think David’s minor obsession over tenure is somewhat merited. Tenure doesn’t guarantee anything, but it’s a much stronger assurance of quality (of both the prof’s research and teaching ability) than the visiting prof label. In other words, tenure is about consistent quality. Hands down the worst prof I had at Williams was a visiting prof (from UChicago, incidentally). That’s just one anecdote, but I’ve seen the numbers at Williams and in every meaningful category, tenured and tenure track profs significantly outperform visiting profs on the end of course exit surveys (at least at Williams).
The TA issue is similar. Sure, a TA might be incredible. A TA may even be the best “prof” you have at Yale. However, the overall educational value a TA provides pales in comparison to that of a full prof most of the time (you recognized that or you would have likely chosen UPenn or another Ivy with more TAs over Yale).
Similarly, I think we would probably all agree that, all things being equal, seminars and tutorials tend to be more educationally effective than lectures (otherwise why go to Yale/Williams rather than a flagship state, where for the most part, the lectures are wonderful?).
I think this is where David is coming from. One prime side of his argument is that if you believe in the importance of close professor contact with full profs, and small classes (which he implicitly assumes that most of us do), then Williams is a better choice educationally than Yale. I think that is how he means to frame the discussion.
Like David, I agree that these are the most important parts of an education for most students, so I agree with his conclusion. I think, rather than arguing with the importance of these two factors as anna does (sorry Anna–do you really believe that the comments you got from an excited TA are better than the comments you could have gotten from an excited professor?), you Yalies should be talking about how the other advantages of Yale outweigh these factors–notably the more prestigious faculty and greater course offerings. That, I think, is where your strongest argument lies.
April 18th, 2008 at 12:00 amdkane says:
Thanks to Anna Ershova for these detailed comments on her lecture courses. This all makes perfect sense and is completely consistent with my experience at Harvard and with everything I know about universities. Lectures are taught by tenured or tenure-track faculty.
The key point (and here I am just focusing on these lectures) is that Anna’s experience in these courses is probably atypical. For example, I am certainly ready to believe that her astronomy professor knows her and talks to her “a lot.” But it is obvious that he can’t do the same for the other 199 students in the class unless he spend all his time chatting with undergraduates. (And is is obvious that the same will be true for the handful or large lectures at Williams.) The students who do best at large schools are those few who are able to assert themselves enough to have this sort of relationship even in their lecture classes.
I think that the central difference between Williams and Yale is summarized perfectly in this one sentence.
I don’t think that there is a single professor at Williams who would behave the same way.
With regard to Sam’s comments, I am all for having “an open conversation about the nature of education at the institutions,” but not in this thread. The purpose of this thread is to establish some empirical truths about Yale and Williams, truths that many/most applicants have little clue about.
Do professors know your name, provide written comments and engage in conversation with you, both while you are in their course and afterwards? How true is this for the average student?
In a different thread, we can discuss other aspects of the differences.
I have no problem with visiting professors or, rather, I don’t think that Williams and Yale are that different in this category. My focus here is with the confusion that many students have over whether or not real professors play a meaningful role in their education.
Now, you may argue that you would rather get written comments from your excellent TA rather than your professor. All we are trying to establish is what percentage of all the written comments you get over 4 years come from professors versus non-professors. At Yale, 95% (?) of the written comments come from non-professors. At Williams, the reverse is true.
April 18th, 2008 at 12:09 amAnna Ershova says:
Re: my seminars,
I took a seminar on Politics of South and North Korea last term (it had 7 students) and yes, I got very detailed comments from my (tenured) professor on my papers (in fact, he e-mailed me after I got my midterm back to add an additional comment). Not only did he comment on every single paragraph, but he provided me with a great overall commentary, suggesting more sources I could find useful.
I am taking a literature/women, gender, and sexuality studies seminar I already mentioned (it has 15 students, I believe). My (tenured) professor provided me with detailed comments (so detailed I got tired reading them; mind you, I had an A for most of them, so he was not just criticizing, but actually praising me) on every single one of 9 essay I have written so far.
I am also taking a higher-level ethics, politics and economics seminar taught by a visiting professor. He is a very famous author; he is not tenured, but he is not even interested in that. He is truly amazing and his seminar is the most intellectually stimulating course I have ever taken in my life (I am only a freshman at college, but I went to high school in five different countries, so I had my share of really good courses and amazing teachers). There are 15 students in this seminar; everybody gets a lot of attention. I keep in touch with my professor via e-mail and he is going to be my sophomore adviser next year.
Last but not least, I am taking German. Actually, it is a seminar on German literature and film in the 20th century that is taught in German. We have to write MANY fairly long essays and I always get detailed comments from my professor (tenured, a language program director). It is an advanced class (highest level one can find), so most of her comments deal with essay content, not grammar or spelling. There are 8 students, so we all get a lot of individual attention.
April 18th, 2008 at 12:10 amcurrent eph says:
Sam–intro classes are run differently at Williams depending on the major. Most of the humanity intro courses (like English and Philosophy) are capped at 19. The intro math course I took had around 30 in it. My Econ 110 (intro to micro) lecture had 40-50 students and may have broken into smaller sections, although I don’t remember for sure. Bio 101 had ~50 students and broke into lab and discussion sections of around 10 with the lecturer and I think a lab tech. Art History 101-102 is, I think, the most popular and largest class at Williams. I’m estimating here, but I think there would be something like 70-100 students/community members in each lecture. Additionally, the class required weekly discussion sections (of 12 I recall), all of which were led by full professors. Mine was led by the lecturer. I don’t think there are more than a handful of other large intro courses at Williams, although I imagine there are a number of largish science lectures (like orgo). I’d say my average class size at Williams was around 10-15 with my median class size being smaller (about half of the classes I took at Williams had <10 students). I was a humanities major, though, so I probably had more tutorials (2 students) and other tiny classes than the average student.
April 18th, 2008 at 12:13 amSam Jackson, Yale '11 says:
That is indeed where I will make my argument… but one comment on the visiting professor mark: The visiting professors in question are Jonathan Schell, and Boris Kapustin. See description of this term’s course schedule here.
They are visiting EP&E professors, which is an interdisciplinary major which works to draw people from around the world and different disciplines. Kapustin received some of the highest course evaluations at Yale ever seen by the head of the major– he was described as “off the charts” and rightly so. The other professor in question is Jonathan Schell, who is also extremely good and brings a tremendous background to bear in his courses on the nuclear dilemma and another on nonviolence (which I am taking).
Tony blair will be visiting next year. His teaching skills aside, I am sure his course would be very educational and would be wonderful to take (albeit impossible). It’s about globalization and faith.
The point is, looking for some weird numbers and quantitative approach to things as the only answer is going to give you apples and oranges.
April 18th, 2008 at 12:17 amdkane says:
Anna,
Your seminars sound amazing. If the typical student at Yale has the same experience, I am completely misinformed. So, looking at your course schedule, how many seminars like these do you expect to take next year? How many of the students in your freshmen entry (if that is what they are called at Yale) took four such seminars this year? How many took more and how many fewer? I expect that almost no one took more and few took as many as four. (I assume that Yale requires at least one such seminar for freshmen.)
Again, if most of the students at Yale are in 4 seminars like yours per year, then I am mistaken.
April 18th, 2008 at 12:19 amSam Jackson, Yale '11 says:
I should do my homework instead of being on the Yale-defensive here, so let me pose a question to you Ephs:
How do you explain the situation of students understanding the difference between Williams and Yale (or some similar school) and choosing Yale? Is it some strange societal effect which “blinds” them to the magic of Williams? Please come down from that horse so we can talk about this issue, seriously. For example, from going to boarding school in NH, I learned that one thing I wanted was to NOT have a really super small closely knit community in a rural or semi-rural place. That was actually very important to me. Yale was a compromise for me whereby the residential colleges maintain a sense of close community while I would (ideally) get the advantages of a larger school in many other respects.
Anyway, we have not talking about the PROs of Yale just yet, so I will stop responding here and do work and then tomorrow write about some of those so that you guys can talk about them. This is a nice discussion, just please please be open to the possibility that Williams might not be the perfect school for everyone! Don’t try to beat everyone into place until the pegs fit!
April 18th, 2008 at 12:24 amSam Jackson, Yale '11 says:
David: Things vary by major and by student preference. More on that later. Also, I am taking more– 5 seminars this year (4 this semester) and 1 lecture this semester which is seminar-sized and very conversational. Again, here are my courses for this term.
Also… taking this many seminars is deadly. I don’t know what they are like at Williams, but it is kinda stupid and unhealthy for me to take the courseload that I am taking his term. This is largely because of the French, but it is just brutal, brutal, brutal even if it is very stimulating and enjoyable.
April 18th, 2008 at 12:30 amSam Jackson, Yale '11 says:
Seminars are not required. There would likely not be enough spaces. See: problems with freshman seminars program.
April 18th, 2008 at 12:32 amAnna Ershova says:
David,
Thank you for complimenting my course choice. I am pretty much a typical poli sci/ethic, politics, and economic major. I could have easily taken more seminars, but decided against it for a variety of reasons.
I consider myself very lucky to be in Jonathan Schell’s class because freshmen would not normally want to take it: it is quite challenging. In fact, Sam and I are the only freshmen in it, the rest are juniors and seniors.
My academic experience is by no means extraordinary. None of my seminars are senior seminars, which are the most awesome ones, so my seminar experience is that of a typical underclassman/woman. My literature and non-violence seminars are higher-level and require a lot of work, but they are worth it.
Every freshman has a right to take one “freshman seminar” per term; I chose not to take them, even though every single one of them is great.
Most of my friends take 4 or 5 seminars their freshman year; many 6 or 7, some take 3, but an average would be around 4 or 5. All seminars are taught by tenured faculty or visiting professors (I believe Sam’s description of Kapustin and Schell illustrates that they are just as good as tenured faculty).
April 18th, 2008 at 12:36 amSam Jackson, Yale '11 says:
n.b., when I was saying that my # of seminars was problematic, it was because of the workload of my specific seminars–it is true that some others are much more manageable.
April 18th, 2008 at 12:41 amrd31 says:
Dkane, you only seem to think that Professor-Student interaction is what makes the best undergraduate education. There are so many other factors that you neglect to consider; these factors could possibly be even more important than interaction with professors.
Yale has an enormous endowment; it is able to provide so many extra resources for its students that Williams simply cannot. Research opportunities abound; I know a senior who received full funding to conduct research in India on Bhangra (an Indian folk dance). There are many other free international experiences (to study language; extracurricular group tours; internships, etc.) for students on financial aide. There are hundreds of student groups that get loads of funding to pursue educational opportunities. Yale is able to send me to China for free to participate in an “Ivy Council” conference where Ivy League student governments interact with Chinese student governments.
Yale also has enormous internship opportunities for its undergraduates; most of which Yale can fund for its students. Yale is also able to pay more for faculty members. For example, we have Tony Blair teaching next year.
Yale also attracts numerous celebrities, scholars, authors, etc. to weekly “master’s teas” to talk to students.
Yale is also able to afford cultural experiences for its students. My residential college is able to send students every month to New York to experience the opera, philharmonic, musicals, wine tasting, etc.
We also have an amazing residential college system that is tough to compete with. It gives us a comparable small-college experience to Williams.
My point is, you cannot assume that faculty resources automatically makes the Williams Education better for a majority of students. There are so many other factors that you failed to consider.
April 18th, 2008 at 12:43 amronit says:
Fortunately, Williams is not a really super small closely knit community. Also, we’re (mostly) not a cult.
April 18th, 2008 at 12:51 amAnna Ershova says:
Re: an overlooked question
I am planning to take 4 seminars and 1 lecture per term my sophomore year; one of these seminars will be Chinese. I don’t think I need to take any lectures as a requirement for my major, but lectures seem to be somewhat easier since I tend to prepare for the actual discussions in seminars a lot. I might go for 2 lectures and 3 seminars per term if I come across any lectures as fascinating as my judicial politics lecture.
April 18th, 2008 at 12:57 amcurrent eph says:
Sam–I’m not sure if you’re responding to David or me. I don’t think Williams is the perfect school for everyone. In fact, while I do believe that in most (not all!) cases it’s an academically better fit, overall for cross admits, I don’t think Williams is better for 75% of the students, as David suggests earlier. Rather, I think the number is closer to 50/50 when non-academic factors are taken into account. To answer your question, I think the primary reason why 50% of cross admits don’t choose Williams is because most prospective students aren’t especially well educated about the colleges that they look at. For those students who are well educated, well, it’s hard to ignore Yale’s name as a high schooler. I was certainly drawn to it (Yale was my favorite of the ivies, and my second favorite overall after Williams). Finally, the fact is that virtually no person is an entirely or even mostly a rational being, and that while rationally it might be the best decision for 50% (or 25% or 75%) of cross admits to choose Williams over Yale, I think there are few students whose college decision is primarily rationally motivated.
April 18th, 2008 at 12:58 ameph says:
“Fortunately, Williams is not a really super small closely knit community. Also, we’re (mostly) not a cult.”
…errr, we went to same school, right?
April 18th, 2008 at 1:06 amSam Jackson, Yale '11 says:
But say students could visit both, go on campus visit days, talk to current students, do all of that… do you think so much of it really comes down to allure of the name? This isn’t a comparison of Harvard vs. Yale, structurally Yale and Williams are quite a bit more different I think.
April 18th, 2008 at 1:09 amcurrent eph says:
Sam–I agree. That’s why I believe that while Williams (IMO) has an academic edge, the split of rational students would be close to 50/50. I think there are many rational good non-academic reasons to choose Yale over Williams (as well as, of course, some–albeit fewer–rational good academic reasons to choose Yale over Williams). That’s just going to depend on the particular student. If students could visit both campuses, talk to a representative sample of current students, complete an overnight, and not be swayed by irrational biases, then I think the split between Yale and Williams would be close to 50/50. The fact is that few students complete the first three steps to a good college decision and virtually none (and that includes me) complete the last step.
April 18th, 2008 at 1:43 amfrank uible says:
Youse academics surely prefer the sound of your own words to all else! You can’t perform a simple bodily function without discussing it endlessly. When it comes to verbiage – if as a general proposition less is better, then this thread amounts to nothing but effluvium; and of course it is.
April 18th, 2008 at 3:07 amJeffZ says:
For someone so fixated on the benefits of the free market, David, I find it strange that you distrust, so deeply, the results of the consumers in the free market in this instance. Personally, I think the reality is something like 50-50, but then again, I don’t preach the gospel of Adam Smith as fervently as you. And consumers of higher education are among the best-informed and most thoughtful consumers there area … so why would you trust the market to function effectively in other arenas (say, hedge funds) but not this one?
April 18th, 2008 at 7:10 amDHD says:
As a graduating Yalie with a significant other at Williams, I find this topic fascinating.
Out of my 36 courses, I have had 16 seminars and 20 lectures. Three of those lecture courses were required for my major (psychology). Half of my professors freshman year knew my name and graded all of my work. I have no idea if this is typical or not, but I suspect (as Sam said) that it depends largely on personal preference and major.
I certainly could have taken many more seminars than I did. I never once felt that I was being forced to join an anonymous herd in a gigantic lecture hall; I chose each lecture course deliberately (for the content, the professor, or both). Some of my most engaging and communicative professors (i.e. professors who stop to talk to students in the halls, hold extended office hours and discussions after class, etc.) did not grade any of my work. So the fact that I have TAs in half of my classes does not mean that I only have decent interactions with half of my professors.
That said, I do sympathize with both sides of this debate. I often wonder if I would have been better off at a school like Williams.
That’s enough for now – it’s very early in the morning…
April 18th, 2008 at 7:15 amdkane says:
1) For the third time, I am not complaining that every cross-admit should choose Williams over Yale. In fact, if it will get us to agreement, I will lower my estimate from 75/25 to 50/50. The key point is that there are scores of students who are choosing Yale who would be better off choosing Williams.
2) Jeff is confused about the benefits of a free market. A free market does not always produce the perfect outcome. It just produces better outcomes on average than any other system. More accurate information would lead to better outcomes.
3) Since specifics are always helpful, I will note that, of Sam’s five courses this semester, only two are taught by tenured tenure track Yale professors and one of these is a lecture. Now visiting professors and celebrities are a tricky topic, but I will predict that the last contact that Sam will have with Kapustin and Shell for the rest of his college career will be this summer. That is, these men will have no contact with Sam for his final three years at Yale. This is a very different pattern than he will see with his seminars with actual Yale faculty.
4) Perhaps a Yale education freshmen year is radically different than a Harvard one. Certainly, Anna’s report that the average freshmen takes 4 seminars is completely unlike what happens at Harvard. (Although perhaps this is not an average for all Yale students, just for the (small? large?) subset like Anna and Sam.)
Yet I still have trouble making the math work. More in next comment.
April 18th, 2008 at 8:45 amdkane says:
Again, I am ready to believe that a Yale undergraduate education is much better than I believe it to be, that my experiences at Harvard are not relevant to Yale, that Yale’s reputation as the most undergraduate-focussed Ivy is deserved. However, can someone help me with the math?
Anna reports that 4 to 5 seminars per year is typical for freshmen. DHD reports taking 16 out of 36 courses as seminars. Assume that these are typical experiences for students at Yale. If there are 6,000 (?) and each is taking about 2 seminars in a given semester, then that would be 12,000 seminar spots right now. If each seminar had 15 (?) students in it, that would be 800 seminars at Yale this semester. There are 600 (? Old data in this pdf) faculty at Yale. Since some (100?) will be on leave and some (100?) do not teach undergraduates, that would leave each faculty member teaching 2 seminars each semester. I don’t believe that.
We could even be more conservative by assuming fewer students, larger seminars and more faculty. Even then, we still have a rate of one undergraduate seminar per professor per semester. Plausible?
Now, no doubt the above numbers are wrong. Corrections welcome! But, big picture, there are too few faculty, teaching too few courses for the typical Yale student to have anywhere near 4 faculty-led seminars per year. The math just does not work.
We can see this very clearly in Sam’s case. He has one seminar this spring led by a Yale faculty member, not four. He is, no doubt, still having a great time but it is important for prospective students to know who does the teaching and who does not.
Questions:
1) Could DHD give us some more background on the 16 seminars she took? How many were taught by tenured/tenure-track faculty? How many were taught by graduate students or lecturers? I predict that we will see a similar patter to what we see with Sam.
2) And, as long as we are collecting data from DHD, how many of those 36 faculty could greet her by name if they met on the street? And what would the number be for her significant other at Williams? If we restrict the sample to tenured/tenure-track faculty, I bet that the number is around 5 for her and 15 for him.
April 18th, 2008 at 9:13 amronit says:
As long as we’re collecting arbitrary data points – how many faculty members does the average student at Yale go drinking with in their four years? For me, at Williams, the count was 5 – all tenured.
April 18th, 2008 at 9:53 amJay says:
My education at Williams was very good, but often it was not nearly as good as it could have been, largely because while we may not have TAs teaching our classes, we do have many visiting professors, which are not necessarily of the highest quality. That was particularly the case with my major. I often picked classes based on my level of interest in the course material rather than the professor – big mistake. I had quite a few crappy visiting professors as a result.
April 18th, 2008 at 10:00 amJG says:
Wow, what a lot of comments in a relatively short amount of time. David must be proud.
I would like to point out that while there may (hypothetically, I don’t know if I agree) be a 50/50 split of those who choose Yale but would be better at Williams, I would wager that there is also a substantial number of individuals who choose Williams and would be better at Yale or someplace else. Let us not forget that at 17-19 years old, sometimes we overlook what could be important factors in college choice. Are you a city person? Looking for research funds? Want to study in a department that has more than 4 professors? Want to major in something Williams doesn’t offer and don’t want the massive amount of effort required to create your own major? These are considerations. On balance, thoughtful, intelligent, informed students may come out differently.
If I were to pick a college right now, I don’t know that Williams would be it. It worked out great for me, but I attribute much of that to luck (and me getting waitlisted at Princeton where I thought I wanted to be). What I wanted in an academic environment also changed as I went through Williams. I don’t regret my time there at all, and I cherish the experiences I had and academic benefit I received. But it was really difficult for me to pursue my concentration in African American studies and I didn’t have the energy to find a way to develop it into a major. On the other hand, I got to have class at the coffee shop or pub and spend casual time with professors in a manner that inspired me and deepened my college experience. Would I have been “better off” in more larger classes but having full departments at my disposal in different areas? I don’t know.
I guess thinking more about this, I actually think I would dispute the premise of this question. Even narrowing it to just academically “better off” I doubt we can really make that judgment. Getting to know professors is great, as are small classes, but there is also academic value to being inspired in a direction by a renowned visiting professor that Williams couldn’t attract. There is academic value to only being taught by profs and not TAs, but there is also academic value in having more resources in many departments to learn about different subjects or access lab tools or interships. Do you learn more in small classes or through experiential learning?
Perhaps you want all of these things (as I did when I was applying to school), but you have to make a choice. You end up “better off” on some of your priorities and worse on others, but is your overall experience better or worse? I just don’t know how one judges that frankly.
April 18th, 2008 at 11:54 ammorrow says:
I think about a third of them would be better off, both academically and socially, at Smith.
April 18th, 2008 at 1:45 pmdkane says:
JG writes:
Surely you don’t mean that in general. If a student is admitted to both Williams and MCLA, almost everyone would agree that she should attend Williams. This does not, of course, mean that she will have a good time at Williams. Nor does it mean that she wouldn’t have a great time at MCLA. In fact, if we could run the experiment 100 times (50 times she goes to one place and 50 to the other), then there would certainly be realizations of the world in which MCLA was the better choice.
The key issue is what is the best decision on average both for a particular student and for the 100 or so cross-admits at Yale/Williams.
I assume that your position is that, while we all agree that 99%+ of all cross-admitted student should choose Williams/Yale over MCLA, the former two or so similar that you can’t really distinguish between them. I disagree and the point of this exercise is that, if you want tenured/tenure track faculty to know your name, speak to you personally and provide written comments on your work, you are 5-10 times better off at Williams.
Now, obviously, if your life’s dream is to live in New Haven, you should go to Yale. There are other issues besides interactions with faculty to consider. But I first want to establish what the facts actually are. Anna/Sam/DHD seem to imply that the typical Yale student is in two faculty-led seminars per semester. I find this absurd, but am ready to be educated on the topic.
April 18th, 2008 at 1:55 pmronit says:
I don’t think it is at all clear that 99% of students should choose Williams/Yale over MCLA, especially not if there are students who would be paying in-state public tuition at MCLA and full sticker price at Williams or Yale. For many families, state schools may present a more attractive ROI.
April 18th, 2008 at 2:10 pmrory says:
my god David, what an absolutely waste of a comment that was. JG nowhere said anything about MCLA. JG was speaking about schools with similar prestige and large endowments…you spent 2/3rds of your comment on a red herring of your own creation. bravo.
Within broad segments of higher education, it is hard to make definitive statements of quality. JG makes the point quite eloquently and personally–there are benefits to larger schools. God knows I see it every day in the center with which I’m affiliated. One relatively small center has brought in 6 or 7 amazing speakers, the likes of which a center with the same interests at williams would be lucky to get 2 in one year. If that’s what you’re looking for–go to a bigger school. As for people who want close attention from professors, at Williams it is standard and I appreciate that. At a Yale or a Penn, it isn’t standard but if you want it, it isn’t an impossibility. The reasonableness of making the decision to opt for more academic resources at the price of a more removed professorate is not in any way absurd.
Let’s go with my field, sociology. At williams, it is part of a (wonderful) department of 13 faculty (2 visiting included). At yale–which does not have a particularly famous sociology department historically, so this is, if anything, biased towards williams–there are 20 faculty (visiting not included, i think). Oh, and the williams department is split between anthropology and sociology. If I were an undergraduate who knew in his heart of hearts that he wants to be a sociologist, why not go to yale?
at yale, there are 41 courses in sociology on their registrar’s site. at williams including those not being offered but in the books, you get half that breadth. why is that unreasonable to you as a reason to prefer yale over williams?
(Sam, if you happen to work at all with Eli Anderson at Yale, tell him Rory from Penn says hi!)
As has been pointed out, you don’t first want the facts. You stated the theory first in your original point and when a small sample of yale students (first-years in the social sciences, i gather from a scan) called you out on your assumptions THEN you started asking for the facts.
April 18th, 2008 at 2:27 pmcurrent eph says:
David–I’m not that surprised…it seems like the average Yale student takes 5 courses a semester. Assuming that Anna/Sam/DHD are referring to the average Yale non-science major (we can’t forget that sciences, no matter at what school, tend to have larger classes), 40% seminars is about what I would expect for humanities majors at a school like Yale (which I’ve also thought of as a particularly undergrad focused Ivy). I’m wondering if you’re surprised because maybe the seminar %age was lower when you were at Williams?
April 18th, 2008 at 2:46 pmJG says:
dkane writes:
First of all David, I don’t know that “we all” have agreed to much of anything ever, because “we all” don’t seem to agree on the questions or topics. Additionally, your assumptions about what my position is rarely relate to what I’ve actually put forth, so I’ll fall back on the old saying about what you do to yourself when you assume….
As to the point of this discussion being tenured/tenure track faculty knowing your name, professors speaking with you, and receiving comments on work, that is actually not the exercise that was set up. Go back and read your original post. You said “Let’s start by focusing on academics” and then proceeded to list the elements that YOU think determine whether one is “better off” academically. As I believe I explained, I think there are more considerations that go into a decision on the better school academically based on what an individual is looking for in their academic experience. I believe the other comments here overwhelming support that as well. The most obvious things to me that you ignore in that reductionist list are course and department selection, and as others have noted, resources to support those academic programs.
I would agree that the average student (not just the truly motivated one) is more likely to interact regularly with tenured/tenure-track faculty and get direct feedback from them at Williams v. Yale. I disagree with your extrapolation that the overall academic environment can therefore be determined superior as a factual matter. First, superiority is a value judgment, not a fact. Second, the issue is much more complex.
(And thanks for the backup Rory!)
April 18th, 2008 at 2:54 pmdkane says:
Have I entered some po-mo alternate reality in which we can not make judgments? Where it is impossible to say that this glass of orange juice is better than that one?
I agree that there are many reasonable dimensions on which a reasonable 18 year old might choose Yale over Williams or vice versa. I agree that, on some of these dimensions, like more course offerings, Yale is better. I agree that there are some dimensions, like city versus rural, on which student preferences will differ. I agree that there are many different aspects to the academic experience and that the ones that I have listed above are just a subset.
All that I am trying to do is establish the empirical claim that, on the dimensions that I have selected, Williams is much better than Yale. In fact, it is much better than even current students at Yale/Williams realize. Now, this is without a doubt true of Harvard. 90%+ of the written comments that Harvard students receive on their work is not from tenure/tenure track faculty. The average student will only be known by name to a handful of faculty members on graduate day. This is just the reality of life at Harvard.
Now, even knowing this, one might choose Harvard. But virtually every Harvard student I talk to is both a) vaguely unaware that this is the deal when they accept and b) completely unaware of how different things are at Williams. I want to fix that market failure.
One point of this exercise is to determine whether or not Yale is like Harvard on these dimensions. We have made some progess. With luck, we will make more.
Now, in some other thread, I would be happy to focus on other aspects of the academic experience at these schools besides the three that I start with above. But we haven’t even figured out the truth of those three yet! Can we start with that?
In the next thread, I would be happy to discuss other aspects of academic life. I think that issues of famous visitors and course variety are dramatically oversold. That is, there is no doubt that Ohio State offers more Sociology classes than Yale and that Yale offers more than Williams. I just think that this doesn’t really matter.
April 18th, 2008 at 3:17 pmDHD says:
Since you asked for more of my data, David:
All but one of my 16 seminars were taught by tenured or tenure-track professors. The one exception was a summer class in Paris, taught by a “senior lecturer.” Grad students are not allowed to teach seminars, as far as I can tell; they do lead discussion sections for lecture courses, but they do not teach full courses on their own.
I agree that professors at Williams can probably name many more of their students than professors at Yale can. Williams professors have far fewer students. Is that what the issue comes down to in the end? Student-professor ratio?
I agree with JG that there are other academic issues to consider here, like the trade-off between time with faculty and number of available courses. Would I be happier having 95% of my professors know me by name if I only had one or two seminars to choose from in a given department?
April 18th, 2008 at 3:19 pmDHD says:
Sorry, David, I posted those questions before reading your latest post. I’d be happy to take them up in a different thread.
April 18th, 2008 at 3:22 pmYalie says:
Ha where do you get these arbitrary numbers…5x as much? 10x as much? I, like many other students, have had dozens and dozens of conversations with professors. It’s not rare. Every one of my classes is taught by a full professor (though I’m not a huge fan of this credentialism).
Where I think you’re making a mistake is in judging the quality of education and the overall student experience by just one criterion. I don’t doubt that Williams provides more student-professor contact, at least for freshmen. But there are many other factors that contribute to the quality of education here, ranging from the public service we all do in New Haven to widely-published professors like Akhil Amar, Charles Hill, and Donald Kagan (who all teach one or more undergraduate classes/seminars…actually, Hill teaches freshmen in a program called Directed Studies) to the intellectual environment of a medium-sized college.
April 18th, 2008 at 3:30 pmdkane says:
DHD,
This is very helpful. And, again, I am ready to believe that I was wrong to assume that Yale was like Harvard. I knew hundreds of students at Harvard and can’t think of a single one who took anywhere near 15 seminars. So, can you provide more detail?
1) What major were you and what were most of the seminars in? If you remembered some class names, that would be great. Also, how many (if any) were language courses?
2) How many people were in the seminars on average? Did the profs all do the grading and provide written feedback on the papers? (I assume that this was true in any seminar, but wanted to double check.)
3) How similar was your experience to others? That is, how many such seminars does the average Yale student take?
4) When you graduate (this spring?), how many professors will know your name?
Thanks for your time. I am rapidly learning that Yale is nothing like Harvard, at least when it comes to undergraduate education.
April 18th, 2008 at 3:40 pmrory says:
David,
you continue to put words not only in JG’s mouth but now in mine. It’s not only annoying, at this point, it’s insulting.
As JG correctly noted, you said “academics” not “faculty/student interaction” but academics. Our point is simple: within the field YOU decided we would discuss (“focusing on academics”), there are completely reasonable explanations for why williams is better than yale AND why yale is better than williams. If this was a post to figure out if yale was like harvard, why not just email sam instead of create the invidious distinction between two top-quality schools?
the problem is that your value judgement was one we disagree with because the field itself is too broadly defined (“academics”) and has too many possibly contradictory desires (breadth vs. depth. faculty/student interaction vs. being where the action is, etc.) to be answered with a simple “this is better than that”.
As a quantitative research you should appreciate this critique: your research question was poorly constructed. If “contrary opinions are welcome” then accept our opinion that within your premise (again, “focusing on academics”), the debate is nowhere near as cut-and-dry as you want it to be.
If, instead, your question is “where is there better faculty/student interaction” then you are correct. If your argument is that high school students don’t appreciate the importance of that dimension, I’d probably agree with you. But in terms of “better academics”, I don’t think you can make a definitive claim one way or the other because “better academics” is too poorly constructed a basis of hierarchy.
April 18th, 2008 at 3:59 pmDHD says:
I agree that Yale is nothing like Harvard. It’s what we’ve always been taught at Yale, of course, but it’s also what I’ve found through conversations with students and faculty at both institutions.
Part of the issue is that professors at Yale are required to teach undergraduate courses. I find this generally means not that we have a lot of bitter, disgruntled professors who would rather be devoting all of their time to research, but rather that professors who choose to come to Yale are truly interested in teaching. I know a professor at Harvard who feels that the administration actively discourages her from focusing on teaching.
On to your questions…
1) I’m a psychology major (please don’t use the past tense until I turn in my thesis on Monday!) and I think roughly half of my seminars were in my major and half in language/literature courses. All of my psych seminars were taught by “famous” professors in the department.
I did take a lot of language courses, particularly freshman and sophomore year, but I think you’d find similar numbers of seminars in other fields. When I thought I wanted to be a French major I took four seminars in French: 17th-century literature, Francophone/African literature, Paris in literature (don’t remember the exact name), and a Proust seminar. Freshman year I took a Latin poetry seminar and a Greek seminar on the Odyssey. So yes, a lot of my selections were very language-heavy, but that’s just where my interests were.
2) My seminars had no more than 20 students, sometimes as few as 5. One of my psych seminars had a TA, who helped with the grading, but even in that case my professor provided extensive feedback on my paper topic and wrote a full page of comments on the paper itself.
3) I believe my experience is fairly common – if anything, I may have chosen to take more lectures than many students do. I’ve often chosen to take lecture courses I had no real interest in, just to sort of bask in the glow of some powerhouse professors (like Amar and Kagan, mentioned by Yalie above). In those cases I wasn’t looking for one-on-one interactions with those professors, though the students who wanted it certainly got it.
4) It’s true that only a handful of professors will remember my name at the end of the year. But I should emphasize that I’m one of the more timid students here and do not seek out conversation with professors as much as I should. I imagine that students like Sam and Anna will be in better contact with their professors than I am.
And again, at a small school, professors will undoubtedly recognize more of their students. At my tiny high school, every teacher knew my name – they also knew who my boyfriend was, what my interests and achievements were…), but I don’t think this is a measure of the quality of their teaching.
April 18th, 2008 at 4:18 pmdkane says:
Rory (and JG?),
Why is this so hard to understand? I said, Let’s start with academics and then I listed three specific, measurable quantities associated with academics. I did not claim that these are the only three possible things associated with academics that anyone, anywhere could possible care about. They are just a subset of all the different items that fall under the academic label. I never denied that other items are included in academics. I just wanted to start with these three.
Now, I also think/thought that these three are a) particularly important and b) likely to differ significantly between Yale and Williams and c) often unclear to cross-admits.
But, having settled that, we can move on. What other items in academics do you think differ significantly enough between Yale and Williams to matter and are more important than my three? I think (unsurprisingly) that for most students my three (which are just concrete ways of measuring student-faculty interaction) are critical. I think that most everything else is much less important.
April 18th, 2008 at 4:18 pmdkane says:
I greatly appreciate DHD comments. But can she (or someone else) help me out with the math? If the average takes 2 seminars a semester and the average seminar has 15 students and there are 600 faculty and 6000 students, doesn’t that imply that every faculty member teaches 1-2 seminars each semester. I just don’t understand how this can add up unless I am significantly underestimating the number of faculty or overestimating the number of students.
Or does every faculty member really teach 1-2 seminars each semester?
April 18th, 2008 at 4:24 pmrory says:
smh…david, you take one step forward and then two back.
why is it hard to understand my (our?) critique? I don’t doubt williams’ excellent student/faculty interaction, we just doubt that it alone justifies your other claims that a majority of students who choose yale over williams are making a mistake.
It was your expansion (as JG put it, your extrapolation) from faculty/student interaction to “better academics” that I doubt. When we criticized that leap (as have yale commentors), you seemed, at first, comfortable with it. You’ve now properly put those components into the broader (confused/confusing) metric of “academic quality”.
Then, you take your step back…challenging us to think of things that “are more important” and that you doubt already anything else could be.
First, we’ve already mentioned such things a number of times in this thread. Breadth of curriculum. contacts with more “famous” faculty in your fields. better/more outside of class opportunities, etc. When we posted them, you talked about OSU and MCLA. I thought we were talking about Yale!
So again, amongst many other things that Yale *might* have that williams *might not* have:
1. more prestigious faculty
2. a better developed experiential learning program
3. more varied disciplines, more depth in some disciplines
4. contact with the mythical world of “graduate school” and “law school”, etc.
5. better/more non-class focused academic programming (guest lectures, etc.)
6.
Are they “more important”. I argue “more important” isn’t an appropriate description. These are all potentially important things for a future student. The tough decision is between the closeness/intimate williams education and the potentially more expansive/less-intimate yale education (that, apparently, may not be too much less-intimate! lol). For a student who is unsure, I think williams is the safer pick–close faculty mentors are always good. for some students, williams is clearly a better academic environment. for other students, they need the bigger curriculum of yale, or the interdisciplinary support, or whatever.
For example, let’s say williams didn’t have econ (a popular topic). If a student really loves econ, is it really “more important” that they have close relations to their non-econ professors at williams than that they have econ professors at yale? Of course not! and you’ve already agreed with that. Hence the problem with “importance”. There is no single metric to use–otherwise, the college decision process for students would be a lot easier!
Besides which, the thing that I think puts williams over the top is the non-classroom interaction with faculty. I’m sure williams students run into their professors on spring street and have ten minute talks more often than most any other school. that’s what I find so amazing–the lessons of those moments.
April 18th, 2008 at 4:43 pmcurrent eph says:
David–
I doubt DHD’s numbers apply to science majors as well as humanities majors. Given that a large percentage of students at Yale (1/3?) are majoring in a science or a subject that tends to be a bit more lecture based (like psych or econ, possibly?), DHD’s numbers become less surprising. Let’s take that into account and assume that the average Yale student takes 1.5 seminars per semester (three per year out of their 9-10 classes per year), and that the average seminar has 20 students–a slight bump up from the number you suggest, but still well within the realm of reason. According to USNWR there are 5300 undergrads at Yale. That means that there are approximately 400 seminars offered each semester. Yale’s student-faculty ratio of 7:1 means that there are roughly 750 faculty at Yale. I think it would be fair to assume that around 150 or so are on sabbatical or aren’t teaching at any given year (leaving 600 active profs). That would mean that the average actively teaching professor would have to teach .667 seminars each semester (two seminars every three semesters). I actually think this sounds pretty reasonable, even assuming that a number of the 600 Yale “active” professors really only teach one or two courses a year.
April 18th, 2008 at 4:48 pmJG says:
I shouldn’t post again, but this is just driving me nuts. What is it about our comments that is so hard for you to understand David? You set out a proposition – academics – then listed what you thought was relevant and invited contrary opinions. We responded by saying that we thought more things were relevant and should be included.
You only tried to inexplicably limit the discussion after we challenged the basis for your judgment. I really think you should go back and read your initial post. Really. It was broadly stated. If you wanted to just discuss those three items, perhaps you should have titled the post more specifically, or perhaps said something like
somewhere before comment #52. Now I’m not saying I wouldn’t have posted the same comments, but at least you would have actually started out with the discussion you seem to have intended.
April 18th, 2008 at 4:52 pmdkane says:
Vaguely related is this 2004 article from the Yale Herald.
If the typical Yale freshmen/sophomore is taking 2 seminars a semester, then this comment makes little sense. What is going on? First, perhaps things are much better now at Yale than they were 4 years ago. Second, perhaps things are very different for students in the departments favored by Sam/Anna/DHD. Third, perhaps the students that Sam/Anna/DHD know are not representative of the larger student body. Fourth, perhaps Steve Smith defines “languishing” as only taking two seminars per semester.
April 18th, 2008 at 4:52 pmdkane says:
Moving on to Rory’s other suggested metrics, I agree that some students use these criteria for selecting Yale over Williams. I just think that they don’t really understand the full context and/or overestimate how much they will really use these items. This is not true, obviously, for all students.
1) It does not matter how prestigious a professor is if she does not know your name, never grades your work and never talks to you.
2) Does Yale have a better experiential learning program? Not that I have heard. Links welcome.
3) Yale has more majors and more selections within majors. True. I don’t think that this matters much. One way to see that is to imagine that Yale were exactly the same except that it offered the exact same classes (with multiple sections) and majors as Williams. Would Yale be that much worse? I don’t think so. I think that your average Yale student does not derive that much marginal benefit from choosing among 10 sociology courses rather than 2.
4) I bet that the vast majority of Yale undergraduates do not have a meaningful amount of interaction with other schools at Yale. The big exception to this would be undergraduates who are sure that, for example, they want to go to graduate school in, say, economics. They chance to take graduate classes and work for famous professors would be a big advantage. Indeed, anyone who is fairly certain that they want to get a Ph.D. should probably choose Yale over Williams, all else equal.
5) I also think that the greater variety of lectures and whatnot is oversold. At Yale, there are 5 (or whatever) famous lectures by newspaper columnists each year. You can pick the one (or more) that you most want to hear. At William, it is either Tom Friedman or nothing. But I think that if you looked at the average number of such events that the typical Yalie attended, it would be similar to the typical Eph. And the extra marginal benefit he gets from seeing his favorite columnist, as opposed to getting stuck with Friedman, is small.
But I agree that these are all dimensions on which Yale and Williams differ.
April 18th, 2008 at 5:08 pmdkane says:
JG,
99 times out of a 100, when someone presents you with a list of three items, they are not claiming that these are the only three items in the whole wide world to consider. Unless they explicitly tell you otherwise, they are just starting with these three, perhaps implying that these are the most important three or their favorite three or the three most relevant to the discussion.
April 18th, 2008 at 5:12 pmronit says:
I am truly awe-struck, David, at what you have achieved here.
Have a good weekend, everyone, and stay tuned for next week, when we’ll troll those NERDS at MIT.
April 18th, 2008 at 5:13 pmcurrent eph says:
David,
I also think that it’s somewhat curious that you’ve chosen the seminar vs. lecture divide as a focus (well, I guess it’s the easiest distinction). In my experience, there’s a pretty significant difference between the size of a class and not just the format. To begin with, I think there’s a huge difference between a 50-75 student lecture and a 100+ student lecture. In the former the prof is likely to know most (if not all) of the students’ names and have a fairly personal interest in their success. In the latter this is almost certainly not the case. Furthermore, I think there’s a big difference between a 30-40 person lecture and a 50-75 person lecture. The former (as I found) can often more closely resemble a seminar than a lecture despite its technical status, and it’s almost sure that the professor knows all of the students and has a fairly high personal interest in their success.
I think this difference persists in seminars. In an 18-25 person seminar, it’s likely that every student will not contribute or participate in discussion in an average class. Furthermore, while professors might develop personal relationships with many of the students, it’s unlikely that they will with every student. In a 7-12 person seminar, however, every student is likely to participate significantly in every class. Furthermore, it’s likely that the professor will develop a personal relationship with every student (albeit possibly not a deep one). Finally, in a 2-5 person seminar, a student can not only be assured of an incredible amount of attention, but is more likely than not to leave on personal terms with the professor that will extent past the semester and could result in a recommendation.
Sure, this won’t always be the case in these classes–I am sure that there are 2-3 students in every 300 person lecture who develop personal relationships with their professors–but I do think that the size of the class makes a huge difference as to the general quality of the class–in many senses, a larger difference than simply the difference between “seminars” and lectures. For example, I think that in general, the difference between a 200 student lecture and a 45 student lecture is far more significant than the difference between a 45 student lecture and a 25 student seminar.
So why is this important–why am I making this fuss? I think it’s important because according to your way of looking at things, Student A and Student B will have the same experience if they each take two seminars and two lectures. However, if Student A takes two 200 student lectures and two 25 student seminars, while Student B takes two 40 student lectures and two 10 student seminars…well, it’s obvious that Student B is likely to be having a far superior academic experience than Student A.
When I think back on my Williams education, I don’t think the most important quantifiable thing in terms of class size was that I took 80-90% seminars. Rather, I think it was that roughly half of my classes had 10 or fewer students.
April 18th, 2008 at 5:19 pmrory says:
I think there’s a problem in that you’re talking the “average” yale student but the actual sample we’re supposedly discussing are the cross-admits. The cross-admits very well could be a self-selecting group. in whose favor they are self-selecting, who knows.
For average students, then, I agree–williams is probably better for the reasons you listed and more.
However, there are two concerns I have. One fits into your theory of a market inefficiency, the other not so much. In the one you’ll like more–students who have gotten in to both Yale and Williams likely see themselves as unique/particularly competent/special/elite. So while the average yale student might not interact too too closely with prestigious faculty, the applicant might think s/he is the exception to that general rule. It’s hard to tell a 17 year old they’re wrong and they aren’t too special (note: it’s also hard to tell mid-20 grad students the same thing!) within that new context.
The second is that these cross-admits very well may be those exceptional students. Within my anecdotal experience at a larger university, there are a decent number of students who got in good with some pretty famous professors here. How, then, do we classify the value of taking that chance (maybe I’ll be one of the three who gets to work on that huge cool project!)?
Anyway, that kinda addresses the first point–students either believe that they will work with those prestigious faculty or they are willing to take the *chance* to do so.
Continuing.
April 18th, 2008 at 5:22 pm2. was a shot in the dark.
3. Again, in general, this probably doesn’t matter. But for the student who wants to do, say, the sociology of race (Hi again Eli!), this is a big deal. It is possible at yale. it is flatly not an option at Williams (hire me when I graduate! lol) at the moment. So for 1, maybe 2, who knows how many, cross admits, it can be a huge thing. But for the “average” student, it doesn’t matter.
4. graduate classes, i’d argue, are in general overrated. Those of us from small schools felt much more comfortable as 1st year grad students. however, the recommendations and research project connections can be valuable. I’d also argue that having a law school, business school and/or medical school on/near campus can be a legitimate draw for students interested in dabbling potentially in a field like that. at penn, there’s a lot of crossover of students and they seem to really appreciate it.
5. Probably oversold. But a damn good selling point! lol
Anna Ershova says:
“I greatly appreciate DHD comments. But can she (or someone else) help me out with the math? If the average takes 2 seminars a semester and the average seminar has 15 students and there are 600 faculty and 6000 students, doesn’t that imply that every faculty member teaches 1-2 seminars each semester.”
Out of my 8 floormates, only 1 is not taking at least two seminars this term, but she is an athlete and she prefers lectures, which is a common trend with many athletes, who constitute around 40% of our student body, I believe.
Yale has 5000, not 6000 students (or were you referring to Harvard? I don’t have time to peruse every comment). Many juniors take a term/years abroad, where they are not necessarily taught by a faculty, and seniors usually take fewer classes. This is why there are more faculty members available to teach seminars for your average underclassmen.
April 18th, 2008 at 7:43 pmAnna Ershova says:
Oh, and many students take seminars at grad schools; I am considering taking a couple of seminars at the Law School at some point.
April 18th, 2008 at 7:44 pmAnna Ershova says:
“Let’s take that into account and assume that the average Yale student takes 1.5 seminars per semester (three per year out of their 9-10 classes per year), and that the average seminar has 20 students–a slight bump up from the number you suggest, but still well within the realm of reason.”
3 per year is a very low number.
I have never heard of a seminar that has more than 15 students in them; if there are some out there, I don’t know anyone who is taking them. All my seminars are 15 students or fewer.
April 18th, 2008 at 7:49 pmDavid says:
I stand corrected! My mistake was to assume that the Yale I did not know was similar to the Harvard that I know so well. It isn’t, at least in terms of average class size and faculty interaction. My mistake. And thanks to Sam/Anna/DHD/Yalie for the education. Conclusions:
1) If you are choosing between Yale and Harvard, choose Yale. You will be happier and get a better education.
2) I agree with Rory that Williams still provides more of the sort of faculty interaction that is the meat of a good undergraduate education then Yale does. But if Yale students really average two faculty-led seminars per semester, then the difference is much smaller than I ever imagined. Kudos to Yale!
3) I agree with current eph that we really need to know about class sizes. But, my main assumption was wrong, so I’ll save the detailed debate for another day.
4) Time for Williams to step up! Besides ending all lectures, we need to increase the number of tutorials, decrease the size of other classes, and so on.
I thank our friends from Yale for participating in this interesting discussion. If any find themselves in Cambridge, lunch is on me.
April 18th, 2008 at 9:49 pmSam Jackson, Yale '11 says:
Thanks : )
David, don’t you live in Newton? Anna (my girlfriend) and I will both be around after finals are over–May 14th or so. I live in 02459. We’d be happy to meet up; I think you have my contact info already.
April 18th, 2008 at 9:53 pmdkane says:
Perfect! Drop me an e-mail when you know your plans. You and Anna can visit me and my college-girlfriend wife and see your future . . .
April 18th, 2008 at 10:07 pmSam Jackson, Yale '11 says:
Here’s part of the post that I was writing in response to this. x__X too slow on the post action, I guess. (Didn’t finish it by any measure, it would have been very, very long):
April 18th, 2008 at 10:08 pmDiana says:
I went to Exeter, then I went to Williams, and now I am back teaching at Exeter for one year before grad schooo. As has been previously discussed on EphBlog, I chose Williams over Harvard. Every day, I wonder if I made the right choice. Now that I am back at Exeter, I think I may have made the wrong choice. The opportunity to go to Harvard is one that will only come up once. I went to Williams for two basic reasons:
1. Because I knew I would get taught by real professors and have lots of student-professor interactions at Williams.
2. Because all the people seemed much nicer than the people at Harvard, and I wanted to (continue to) be a nice person.
David seems to be judging the difference between Williams and Yale based entirely on the amount of professor-student interaction. However, that is not all of college. A huge part of it is the students around you, and the students at Harvard are much more qualified, at a much higher level, than the students at Williams. Why not surround yourself with the future leaders, the future presidents and authors and musicians? You’re kidding yourself if you think people from Williams are as hardworking and influential as those at Harvard. This of course gets to criterion 2 — they are more qualified, so they tend not to be as nice.
I really appreciate the interactions I had with professors at Williams — all of my professors knew my name, and many of them invited me to dinner at their house or at a restaurant. I got to do real math research. But if you put in effort at Harvard, you can get to know professors, and you can certainly do real math research — Harvard students populate the top math research programs.
When I tell people at Exeter that I went to Williams, they usually say, “oh, that’s a great college, and it’s so beautiful.” But more often in my life, people say, “Williams? Is that a school?” And every time, I think, “if I had said ‘Harvard,’ they would not have said that.” One alum on EphBlog once said that he used it as a test of people — if they said “where?” when he said “Williams,” then he could judge them. But I’m not at the point where I can do that.
April 18th, 2008 at 10:24 pmronit says:
I really liked the self-selected elite aspect of the Williams experience. Everyone who attended made a very conscious choice to spend four years in the middle of nowhere, in spite of the fact that almost all Williams kids could, I would wager, get into colleges that are much more famous, provide more course choices, and have more of a career/grad school prep focus (if not Yale/Harvard, then Cornell/UPenn/Northwestern/Duke). But we gave that up for some reason.
Really, why would we want the kids who would prefer to be at an Ivy? This is one area where I think the free market is doing a fine job.
The depth issue being discussed by some is rather silly, because motivated students at Williams can pursue their interest to a very advanced level in almost all subjects (except some of the languages). As for the breadth thing, I don’t see any of the traditional liberal arts missing from the Williams course bulletin. We are a liberal arts college, and that’s all we should be focusing on. If you really want to study Biochemical Engineering while in College, then obviously this is not the place for you.
April 18th, 2008 at 11:01 pmyale frosh says:
Another Yale freshman here: I ultimately chose not to go to a small liberal arts college almost entirely because of the depth/breadth issue. I very much disagree with the idea that it doesn’t make any difference whether you’re choosing between two classes in a department or ten: a course on fashion and dress since the Renaissance and one on the Cold War might be in the same department, but they’re also incredibly different and would appeal to different people. Early on in my college search, I found Swarthmore very appealing, but when I read through the courses offered in the department that interests me, I couldn’t imagine having that few options.
April 18th, 2008 at 11:01 pmFor me, Yale was a great compromise because it has a fantastic program for freshmen called Directed Studies, in which students read a good chunk of the Western canon through three seminars per semester under the guidance of mostly great professors (I’m currently being taught by one tenure-track and two tenured professors, one a department head, though I didn’t know their exact status until I looked it up thirty seconds ago, and I don’t think that’s the key part of what makes them good professors). It’s been a genuinely transformative experience for me. The nice thing is that, after having had six seminars (out of nine classes) my freshman year, which is unusual at a university of this size, I’ll still have all the resources of a university in terms of course options once I start looking at junior seminiars (and other advantages people have mentioned, though I personallly think that things like guest speakers aren’t particularly central).
And for the record, I decided not to apply to Williams in particular because at the time I visited, it struck me as being overly focused on athletics and a little too preppy (though I was only there for a day and of course could have gotten a wrong impression).
FROSH mom says:
Diana,
I haven’t felt compelled to comment on this thread until seeing your post. And I’m sure I will get some major flak for this, but here goes…
I have a lot of acquaintances, friends and loved ones, who are grads of Harvard and Yale. Is there higher recognizability? Most definitely. And what does this particular ’status’ breed? They all have a tendency to let you know, within a few minutes of meeting them, where they went to school. I find it amusing the regularity with which this happens, regardless of the ‘type’ of individual.
Williams grads? An entirely different story. Not immediately identifiable, but consistently thoughtful and approachable. And I think it has do with who they were to begin with…and why they chose Williams.
The other thing I will add is this: A Stanford grad once told me that of all her friends who attended great schools, she was most jealous of the Williams grads. Why? Because of the very powerful and lifelong relationships they formed at Williams; the Alumni connections.
April 18th, 2008 at 11:34 pmSam Jackson, Yale '11 says:
Frosh mom, let’s try to keep the generalizations and bashing out of the conversation…
April 18th, 2008 at 11:51 pmronit says:
FM – your post reminds me of the time I was stuck in an Acela seat immediately behind two management consultants, both of whom had gone to Harvard (Business School). And I had no headphones, so I was bombarded by their conversation. And by conversation, I mean insane dominance ritual whereby they both preen and posture in order to impress the other. It was a vortex of status-seeking insecurity. “Oh, you took a finance class with that Nobel laureate? What a coincidence, I worked as his research assistant! And then I dated him. And he acknowledged me in the dedication to his textbook.”
By the time we pulled into South Station, I had a severe
April 18th, 2008 at 11:53 pmurge to killheadache.Anna Ershova says:
FROSH mom,
I avoid telling people where I go to college at all costs: people tend to treat me in a weird way after I mention Yale. I also found it to be a very effective way to deter unwanted male attention. I travel a lot and it happens sometimes that a man next to me on a train/bus/airplane is bored and/or flirtatious. After the mandatory “so, wheredya go to school?” I just answer the truth and they tend to sort of stop right away (nobody likes a smart blond, I guess).
In Hong Kong, where I graduated from high school, people tend to deify prestigious academic institutions; upon hearing ‘Yale’, they start asking me tons and tons of questions about ‘the secrets of getting in,’ so I try avoiding ever mentioning it.
In Russia, where I grew up, people either don’t know what Yale is or start making fun of me because of a certain American president who is an alumnus; so I keep quiet, too.
One may claim my experience is unique; I don’t believe it is. In fact, many of my fellow students tend to avoid mentioning Yale when they talk to strangers (unless those strangers are their job interviewers).
An interesting phenomenon to consider is that people pay more attention to the brand-name colleges. Since there is an existing discourse on Yalies bragging around about their alma mater, one automatically registers it every time Yale is mentioned. A student of a random college in the middle of nowhere can talk about their school 24/7 and nobody seems to mind; a Yalie mentions Yale once and everyone considers him/her annoying and arrogant.
Also, if you someone wearing, say, a UMass sweatshirt, most people won’t even notice; if it’s a Yale one, most people will attention to it and consider its owner an arrogant brat. Would you disagree with that?
See also incredible anxiety Harvard kids have about dropping the H-bomb…
April 18th, 2008 at 11:59 pmWhitney Wilson '90 says:
While don’t agree with Diana’s position, I fairly certain there is no way I can tell her she is “wrong.” Whether going to Williams or Harvard (or Yale) is “better” is clearly matter of opinion, and almost certainly varies from person to person. While the stereotypical arrogance of the Ivy Leaguer almost certainly has some factual basis, I’d be willing to wager (and know from personal experience) that there are more than a few Williams alums who are equally well endowed in the arrogance department.
The value of the name recognition factor of a Harvard or Yale should not be under estimated, but Diana’s statement that “You’re kidding yourself if you think people from Williams are as hardworking and influential as those at Harvard” is both wrong (in my judgment and opinion) and unprovable (at least as to the “hardworking” aspect).
April 19th, 2008 at 12:07 amAnna Ershova says:
ronit,
I am terribly sorry; it must have been a very annoying experience.
I went to a book store in NYC some time ago. A new “Harper’s” had an article by my professor Jonathan Schell. As I was excitedly exclaiming “It’s so cool we get to take a class with him” (because it is really exciting to see your professor’s work published, especially if you are a freshman) to my boyfriend, I noticed a customer giving me a weird look. I was by no means attempting to show off my college, but it must have come across that way. So even though it wasn’t my intention, there may be someone venting about “those kids from prestigious school” out there…
April 19th, 2008 at 12:09 amronit says:
Just so it’s clear, I think my comment has to do with those who use ‘where they went to school’ in an effort to establish status. It doesn’t really matter where you went, doing that in general is rather off-putting. I don’t think normal Yale/Harvard grads are at fault here.
April 19th, 2008 at 12:09 amSam Jackson, Yale '11 says:
Dear EphBlog:
April 19th, 2008 at 12:12 amfocusing, for a moment, on the positive uses of yale’s deep pockets and general resources, I would like to point everyone to a post I just wrote celebrating the opportunities presented by yale’s role in organizing a huge conference on climate change this week. The trickle down of 18 states (1/2 us popl, 1/2 emissions) and an address by both arnold schwarzenegger and nobel laureate pachuri (chair of the IPCC) was that Anna and I had a cozy session with the Czech ambassador and deputy prime minister / minister of environment, possible because of Yale’s resources. please direct comments there, it’s tough to keep up with all the threads here.
ronit says:
Moral Equivalent of Empire? I thought it was an interesting article. I’ve had similar experiences seeing the name of one of my Williams profs in a magazine or newspaper. The excitement is totally understandable.
The people I was sitting behind were insane, though.
April 19th, 2008 at 12:16 amSam Jackson, Yale '11 says:
Just to respond to the comment about Yale sociology: My freshman sociology seminar is taught by the director of undergraduate studies for sociology, and I learn a lot about the sociology department here from random chatter in it (The seminar currently has 6 people in it, by the way). Anyway, sociology here at Yale has lots of faculty but not enough students, so they fawn over whoever is in the major… ;) Yale has an excellent department, faculty wise–as far as hiring goes, because they’re running a search committee for some people right now, they’re not at the top but they’re pretty high up in terms of their appeal to would-be professors when they’re trying to recruit people.
April 19th, 2008 at 12:33 amSam Jackson, Yale '11 says:
Also, Diana, you didn’t tell me you were at Exeter as a fellow!! That’s way cool. What are you teaching? Who are you teaching? Let me know who your students are and I will tell you gossip about them! If you’re doing something mathy, please give my best to Mr. Kaminski and Mr. Seidenberg!
April 19th, 2008 at 12:34 amAnna Ershova says:
Ronit,
I think it was another article, although I cannot think of a title right now; Schell writes for Harper’s on a regular basis, I believe he was an editor at some point. I subscribe to Foreign Affairs and a new issue has an article by Paul Kennedy (a prof from last semester). It is very strange to read these articles sometimes: Kennedy’s article if full of the exactly same terms he used for my international studies class, so it’s like going to class all over again.
On another note, using one’s college name is common amongst those who are insecure about themselves. I went to a symposium at Harvard Law School over the spring break; during a post-lecture discussion, one visitor mentioned he had gone to Cambridge even though it was *completely* irrelevant… (I guess a room full of Harvard students was making feel somewhat insecure) Unfortunately, I see it happen a lot. On the other hand, a close friend of mine who goes to Cambridge avoids mentioning it unless it is absolutely necessary.
April 19th, 2008 at 12:36 amSam Jackson, Yale '11 says:
By the way, Anna and I will personally tour any Ephs who care to visit New Haven. :) drop me a line at my website if you are around and interested.
April 19th, 2008 at 12:43 amAnna Ershova says:
Just to add on Sam’s comment:
Yale’s astronomy department has more faculty than students in it, so they also fawn over every student; students get a lot of personal attention. Same goes for many other majors, e.g. Czech,German or German Studies. However, according to my upperclassmen friends, students enrolled in larger majors still receive a lot of personal attention from their professors/faculty advisers etc.
And Schell was an editor at The New Yorker, not Harper’s; sorry, didn’t mean to misinform anyone!
April 19th, 2008 at 12:46 amronit says:
The Williams Astronomy program has had 2:1 faculty:student ratios in recent years. And by 2:1 ratio, I mean two professors and one student. Beat that.
April 19th, 2008 at 12:52 amAnna Ershova says:
ronit,
This is impressive! Is this because so few students are enrolled or because there are so many faculty members? Luckily, I am not an astronomy major :)
April 19th, 2008 at 12:58 amAnna Ershova says:
OUCH I should have read your comment better.
Yale’s astronomy program is actually well-developed; we have an observatory on campus. Yale also owns a part of a telescope in Arizona, so students get to use it for their research.
April 19th, 2008 at 1:00 amronit says:
Williams has a whole bunch of Astrophysics majors, a program run jointly by the two Astro profs and the Physics department. I guess Astronomy by itself does not present as attractive a career prospect.
And we have our own observatory, which students get a great deal of access to.
April 19th, 2008 at 1:01 amAnna Ershova says:
Most astronomy majors at Yale take more physics classes than actual astronomy classes (I happen to know a senior astro major). Astronomy and physics are intertwined anyway, so that makes sense.
April 19th, 2008 at 1:06 amFROSH mom says:
Sam:
I didn’t intend to “bash”. I was just trying to point out that the recognizability of Harvard and Yale, is a status symbol to many of the alumni. And they grow accustomed to the advantages this status yields and learn to use it.
And many people are attracted to a ’status’ school for this reason. Not all of them, obviously…but possibly the ones that I know.
Williams has its own unique advantages; (IMO) having to do with the small size and the very personal and lifelong connections the alumni form with each other and with the school.
April 19th, 2008 at 1:11 amSam Jackson, Yale '11 says:
From right after EA last year, Y’11 was concerned about how people were prejudiced towards us (even if favorably) on the basis of our yale-ness. see here.
April 19th, 2008 at 1:23 amronit says:
Diana: you are going on to do a Ph.D in math. There is no evidence at all that Harvard is a better preparation for this than Williams. Caltech, MIT, Harvey Mudd, even Bryn Mawr are probably far superior.
April 19th, 2008 at 1:40 amJeffZ says:
Diana, I disagree with you, at least from my personal experience. My best friends in life all went to Williams. And all of us have done exactly as well (if not better) as if we went to Harvard or any other Ivy. While the average Harvard student may have slightly higher qualifications, there are plenty of students at Williams who are just as good as those at Harvard, and moreover, once at Williams, they are very likely to get more out of their education once there … Harvard is known as a place that people absolutely bust their ass to get admitted to, and then cruise to the finish line after burning out while still in high school. I’d rather be at a place where people still have their best years ahead of them. Half my family went to Harvard so I speak from some experience here. The guys I lived with at Williams? One made partner at a top consulting firm, two received MBA’s from Wharton and now work for Microsoft, I am at arguably the top law firm in D.C., another got a Phd / MD and is a resident at Hopkins, and so on … in other words, none of us could possibly have done any better had we attended Harvard and Yale. And not one of us had over a 3.6 at Williams. There are lots of good reasons to attend Harvard over Williams, but I can’t imagine a more impressive, intelligent, interesting group of peers than my friends from Williams …
April 19th, 2008 at 1:59 amabl says:
Anna–I understand what you’re saying about Yale and feeling awkward about the name. I studied abroad for a year at Oxford (not the same thing as attending it, I know, but it meant that for a year of traveling Europe, I was “studying at Oxford” to those who asked). Basically, after the second time I answered “Oxford” to the “where do you go to university” question and got an incredibly awkward response (typically either it was a horribly excited response or a horribly cold response), I started telling people that I studied “in England.”
Now that said, even on this post, I see an incredible amount of name dropping on the part of the Yale students posting here. There are a lot of famous Williams profs too (and i’m sure many of the Williams posters on this board have had classes with them) but you don’t hear any Williams students focusing on that. This was one thing that struck me as well on my campus visits–so much of the focus at Yale was “I’m taking a class with so-and-so…it’s big but he’s really brilliant!” whereas at Williams students gushed about a class’ quality rather than its teacher’s credentials.
Now, like we’ve been through before, Yale does employ more celeb profs than Williams. However, does this translate to better discussions? Does it translate to better lectures? In most cases, professors publish their most important work and then are hired by Yale (or Williams, for that matter). In almost all cases, celeb professors have already done their best work, and typically, that work was done at a different university. While there may be more celeb professors at Yale, I’m not sure that there are more rising star profs. And, while it might be cool to say you had a professor with Famous Professor X who published an important work 20 years ago, I would put money on Professor Y who is publishing important (albeit possibly slightly less fame-worthy) work now teaching a better class.
April 19th, 2008 at 2:02 amfrank uible says:
Do you all understand how disgustingly self-centered you sound?
April 19th, 2008 at 2:09 amrory says:
Sam–
I made the comparison to yale’s department…i think this thread (as frank has noted) grew way too big, way too fast and now is almost a mockery of itself. The comparison in no way was meant to (nor did it) impugn yale sociology, just to note that I was not making a yale biased comparison (like, say, comparing williams’ pre-law to yale’s pre-law–things in which yale has an institutional advantage beyond being larger).
The amount of “we love yale!” coming from yale first-year students is admirable, but it’s also a self-selected group of first-years (those who don’t really like it wouldn’t bother coming to a williams blog to defend/discuss it most likely). I don’t doubt your experience (just like I didn’t doubt your sociology department), but relax–it’s starting to come off as the type of bragging/defensiveness that makes people hate harvard students! lol.
April 19th, 2008 at 10:00 amFROSH mom says:
Indeed, what a luxury to debate the merits of Yale, Harvard, and Williams. And the enthusiasm and hard work needed to gain admission, and a diploma, are to be commended.
But the intelligence and/or means needed, to even qualify?
April 19th, 2008 at 10:48 amGod-given and/or great good luck; a gift for which a modicum of humility might be in order.
C says:
I just wanted to be the 100th comment. Is this a record? Is there a prize?
April 19th, 2008 at 12:28 pmC + 1 says:
Diana’s Comment #70:
One of the little snobbish pleasures of a Williams degree is being able to use it to evaluate whether someone knows anything about higher education by their recognition of it or lack thereof. — H. Webb Collings ‘75
ps — For what it is worth, I think that you will find one day that you made the right choice… hands down.
April 19th, 2008 at 12:38 pmWill Slack '11 says:
My goodness – thanks for stopping by Yallies.
The most basic questions, and ones that I think was ignored here, is setting and size. Williams is smaller and in the mountains. Yale is larger and not in the mountains.
Sometimes the basics are important. They were to me, though certainly not the entire picture.
April 19th, 2008 at 11:29 pmSam Jackson, Yale '11 says:
Well I think most of the outstanding questions have been settled… if there are some left, post them again here or send them along and Anna and I will try to tackle them as full length posts on our blogs or in mega-responses, because this thread is (without nesting) quite hard to follow at this point.
April 20th, 2008 at 1:25 amddavis says:
Ok, I’ve been without Internet for two days and I had no idea there would be so many responses. I may post a more cohesive statement as a new entry, as David suggests, if and when I have a more coherent set of thoughts.
April 20th, 2008 at 7:28 pm