Mon 5 May 2008
More on Korean Prep Schools: An Interview with Joe Foster ‘94
Posted by bfleming under Admissions, Alumni, International Admissions, Interview
Posted at 12:12 pmWhat proportion of Williams students should come from abroad? The debate on the relative merits of international candidates is an Ephblog staple, and last week, the topic re-emerged following the publication of a New York Times article on elite Korean prep schools. The piece detailed the intense academic environment at the Daewon Foreign Language High School in Seoul, which students attend with the goal of eventually gaining acceptance to a prestigious American university.
We, however, have a man on the scene. Williams graduate Joe Foster teaches at the Daewon School and was quoted in the Times article, testifying to the dedication of his students. He was kind enough to discuss, via e-mail, his experience at an education institution very different from those we are accustomed to.
Ephblog: How did you wind up at the Daewon School?
Foster: Well, my parents are both teachers and I was raised at a boarding school in California, where my father was a dean, so I’ve been around education all my life. Maybe for that reason I always harbored some resistance to both school and teaching. After the dot-com crash, though, I was ready for a change and some travel, so I came to Seoul. I didn’t have much of a long-term plan, but I got a job teaching SAT prep and really took to it — in fact, I completely fell in love with teaching. I stayed at that job for four and a half years, and the first time I looked for something else I stumbled across the Daewon position. I’ve been at Daewon for just over a year.
The New York Times article indicated you teach writing. What type of writing, and have you taught any other subjects?
My writing class, by necessity, covers a wide array of writing styles and methods. Daewon students have very little time to catch up to (or, preferably, surpass) their American counterparts, so I take them from the basics of academic writing across disciplines (the course is divided into units based on subject matter) to the rudiments of research methodology and citation standards. Throughout the year I also include occasional lessons focused on timed persuasive essay writing–the kind tested on the SAT–but it’s definitely far from the focus of the class.
The class also includes regular grammar lessons tailored to the students’ needs and weaknesses. I should also note that I share this writing class with Justin Reznick (a UVA alum), and he has a major hand in its construction.
I also teach a Critical Reading course built around non-fiction reading. It’s more of a lecture class. It’s a good class, though, and last year we covered Eric Schlosser’s Fast Food Nation, Bruce Cumings’s North Korea, Jared Diamond’s Guns, Germs, and Steel, and Malcolm Gladwell’s Blink, as well as many shorter readings and excerpts. There’s also an SAT-prep component in this class.
What’s the American teaching presence at the school like?
In the GLP [Ed's note: GLP stands for Global Leadership Program; it is a distinct program within the school, which only the students intending to attend American colleges enroll] there are nine Americans and a Canadian. The school also has several foreign teachers for English conversation classes. The GLP is completely designed for students intending to go to college in the U.S., and many of the GLP students have lived in the U.S. before, some for as long as six or seven years.
How does the class structure or setting differ from what you experienced?
To my knowledge there is no analog in the U.S. Daewon GLP students have a full Korean curriculum during regular school hours and then a full U.S. college prep curriculum in the evenings three days a week. Because of this grueling schedule, my students are often exhausted, so it’s important that class time be used as efficiently as possible — I keep the class moving and try to draw connections across the curriculum and emphasize practical, useful information. GLP class sizes aren’t too unusual, 25-32, although larger than those at U.S. prep schools. Like U.S. prep schools, however, GLP classes are mostly discussion-based.
The biggest surprise to me, though, was not how motivated and disciplined the kids are — I knew that already–but how lively they are. It’s easy for an American to read the Times article and slot Daewon students into the threadbare Asian-learning-machine stereotype, but there’s a lot more to these kids than that. It never fails to amaze me how few of them really burn out–fewer than at most US prep schools, I expect. It’s true they have less time to pursue other activities, but they make the most of the free time they do have.
Are you involved in any extracurricular activities at the school?
As I was new last year I really just focused on my classes, but I’m getting a little more involved this year. Last year I accompanied a group of kids to the Harvard Model Congress Asia event in Bangkok, and I expect to continue in that role. I’ve also had some interaction with the literary club, but it has formal advisers already, so I’ve just been called on informally to give some guidance about 20th century American poetry (my major focus at Williams). I also play in the annual student-teacher basketball game, a risk that I expect will eventually lead to my death by either humiliation or cardiac arrest.
Why do you think getting into the top American colleges has become such an obsession, to use the U.S. ambassador’s term, for so many of these kids?
Simply (reductively?), they want the best, and the impression, not just in Korea, is that the U.S. has the best colleges. A more thorough answer, though, would probably involve tracing back to a centuries-old cultural practice of privileging education above almost all else. Of more immediate concern, the contemporary Korean job market is extremely competitive — almost all Koreans go to college — so a respected diploma can be a valuable edge. In addition, many aspects of Korean society have been, for better or for worse, shaped by U.S. involvement in the Korean War and ensuing post-war rebuilding, and a U.S. military presence and political influence that continues to this day.
Most Koreans, my students included, are able to think critically about this, and many Korean responses to the Times article have bemoaned the pressure-cooker environment and the obsession with foreign name-brand education. I certainly hope the dialog continues and is used to strengthen Korea’s domestic universities and education policies.
The focus on academics at Daewon was portrayed in the Times piece as pretty all-consuming, seemingly at the expense of social development. Do you find that to be the case, or was that aspect of the school overstated?
No, it’s not overstated at all. Students do community service and other activities, but that’s not really considered an important part of their school life: it truly is extracurricular. Saying that the academic rigor is “at the expense of” social concerns, however, is applying an American expectation to a Korean circumstance. Korean schools in general aren’t expected to provide social development (dating, sports, partying, senior pranks, etc.), at least not intentionally. That said, all students take a course in Korean Ethics (도덕, or “Dodeok”) — Korean schools are concerned with raising good citizens.
I don’t have a well-developed opinion on how important it is for schools to include explicit social development, in fact I veer back and forth, but most commentary and criticism I’ve encountered has been woefully under-informed and/or insensitive to cultural differences.
In which case, on the whole, do you think the school does a good job preparing its students for American university life?
Absolutely. Of course, Daewon students are much better prepared academically than socially, but my experience at Williams showed me that many American first-years are in the same boat (and few are better prepared academically, I can honestly say).
Williams wasn’t mentioned in the article — do kids from Daewon know about us? Do you steer any of your students toward Williamstown?
Yes, Daewon students know and admire Williams — there’s a Daewon alumnus in the Williams class of 2011. In fact, there seems to be a recent trend toward the top liberal arts colleges, as Korean parents and college advisers are becoming more savvy and better-informed. I haven’t personally steered students to Williams (that’s unnecessary, Daewon students are aware of Williams’s many virtues), but I’ve occasionally spoken to students about my experiences there, and I rock my coffee in a Williams mug in every class I teach.
Given your experience at Williams, what would be the challenges for a student from Daewon, or the big adjustments he or she would have to make?
It depends, of course, on the student, but the typical Daewon alum would definitely need to adjust to the social life (drinking, lack of supervision) at Williams (or any other U.S. college). Other than that, though, the challenges would probably be similar to those most U.S. first-years face — learning to manage their own time without frequent external pressure, finding a way to distinguish themselves among very talented classmates, dealing with roommates and cafeteria food, trying to find dates, avoiding winter ennui, etc. For Koreans, I guess, there may be some added homesickness, since I don’t think there’s a Korean restaurant in or near Billsville!
Anything else related to the school you think we should know?
There’s really only one thing I want to add, and it relates to one important fact about Daewon. People who read the Times article were universally struck by the demanding schedule our students follow. I think it’s important that people understand that the schedule is largely due to government education policies, and I’m quite sure Daewon’s administration would like to find a way to eliminate redundancies and decrease this burden. The new president, Myung-bak Lee, has announced that he intends to reform the restrictions on the foreign language high schools, but specifics haven’t been revealed. I’m excited and cautiously optimistic that reform will be beneficial and that Daewon’s administration will react wisely. I believe I teach at one of the best high schools in the world, but I also believe it could be a lot better.
[Thanks again to Joe for taking the time for this interview.]
May 5th, 2008 at 1:06 pm
Sounds perfectly dreadful.
May 5th, 2008 at 2:16 pm
It’s very similar to the situation in India, where students prepare, not for US universities and colleges, but for elite Indian universities like the IITs. Most of my friends would attend normal school hours from 8 to 2 and then get another 4 hours of extra coaching 4 times a week.
Those students not interested in science have to prepare for the all India senior secondary school examinations (AISSE). These exams make or break your life - classes end early december and students are given about 3 months to prepare.
Due to all this pressure there were an estimated 4000 suicides last year, ranging from kids aged 13 to adults aged 30 - http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/education/student/news/article657128.ece
May 5th, 2008 at 8:09 pm
Yeah, Frank, I agree. It’s very hard to face the “dreadful” fact that these poor students have to learn stuff and don’t get to start their personal “course of study” at a NY bar like you civilized collegiate lads of the 1950s.
Ah for the good old days, when all it took was wealth and privilege (and whiteness and a Y chromosome).
May 5th, 2008 at 9:37 pm
True, I had the Y chromasone and whiteness (neither condition being subject to alteration). I also had a lot of fun from time to time, despite lacking wealth and privilege. Furthermore I chose to avoid the dreadful as best I could, along with anger, envy, regret and self-hatred.
May 5th, 2008 at 10:12 pm
Congratulations on overcoming your lack of wealth and privilege, or at least acquiring the arrogant and dismissive attitude so commonly associated with them!
Reading back, I now see the Williams(tm)-quality analysis and insight in your comment: “sounds perfectly dreadful.”
Nothing wrong with a little anger and regret, by the way. Without them one is unlikely to rouse oneself from the apathy that so insidiously allies itself with self-satisfaction.
May 5th, 2008 at 10:32 pm
Marv:
I read that article in the NYTimes. I found it so disturbing…’dreadful’ if you will, that I have been unable to comment on it thus far.
“eph” (no. 2 comment) voices, and gives credence to, my biggest fears re the kind of pressure and expectations these kids are living with.
And P.S….Frank isn’t self-satisfied and apathetic. He just uses fewer words.
May 5th, 2008 at 11:02 pm
Thanks, Ben, for your interest. I can’t say I enjoy the tenor of this discussion, but I’ll try to assume the commentators here aren’t representative of Ephblog’s readership.
For readers:
I tried to make clear that my kids at Daewon do take part in extracurricular activities, sports, community service, etc. In fact, I’m surprised how well-rounded they are.
That said, they want the best education they can get. Since–it’s no secret–international students face an uphill battle, Daewon kids pursue the greatest equalizer: academic achievement.
I’m really not sure what the critics would suggest. Should international students not pursue top education in the U.S.? Should they pursue it by focusing on sports and dating rather than their classes? Should they stay out of sight and off the front page of the Times?
May 5th, 2008 at 11:25 pm
They should do what they damn well please - nonetheless, in my view, the situation described sounds perfectly dreadful. Of course, I don’t expect others to agree necessarily.
May 5th, 2008 at 11:38 pm
Joseph,
Thanks for coming on board. Our comments, to you, must seem overly critical and impersonal. After all, you know and work with these students.
As a parent (of a freshman at Williams), my concerns are not just for the kids at Daewon. I have worked in education (albeit public) for two decades. I have seen an increasing emphasis on academics to the extent that I think we are losing sight of much that is important; the subjects and activities that balance and enrich, but may not be as ‘impressive’ on a transcript.
Granted, there are many incredibly bright students that can handle a very demanding load…but IMO, they are fewer than the number that are presently trying to accommodate this load. The competion is such, that many are pressured into more than they can handle.
Forgive my hurried and sloppy comment, and by all means, put my fears at rest. Tell me how wrong I am. Please…
May 6th, 2008 at 12:15 am
In particular, address some of these ’scenarios’ from the article…(and we are talking high school):
“a 15 hour school day”
a student that “studies standing up to keep from dozing”…
a student quote: “I can’t let myself waste even a second.”
“surveillance cameras that were used to ensure that students did not doze in late-night study sessions”
students reprimanded for “holding hands”
Did the article paint an innacurate picture? If not innacurate, then are these kids really able to deal with this starting at, say…14 years of age?
May 6th, 2008 at 3:00 am
And, whether they come from an American or an Asian high school, how does coming from a pressure cooker type of environment seem to impact these students at a place like Williams? Do they get involved in extracurricular activities? Do they take any courses purely for the love of learning? Are they “careerists”? Does GPA matter more than anything else? Are they in an arms race for graduate school? Or do they change, when presented with more personal choices?
May 6th, 2008 at 4:05 am
Korean high school is grades 10-12, so there are no 14-year-olds involved :)
Yeah, they have long days (8:40-5 two days a week and 8:40-7:30 three days, plus mandatory study hall). Yeah, public romance is discouraged (p.d.a. is frowned upon in Korea), but there are plenty of couples.
Students do sometimes stand to avoid dozing off. Is that so bad? I wish they weren’t so tired, but at the same time, I’m impressed. At my high school in the States, students were often exhausted in class, too–never from studying; rather, from all-night beach parties or keggers in the woods–but they wouldn’t even bother to try to stay awake.
Really, though, I don’t want to try to defend everything about this place. I have my criticisms of the system, ones I’ll keep to myself in cautious optimism about the expected gov’t policy changes.
Like I said above,though, I hope readers can avoid falling into the same tired narrative of the one-dimensional, socially-inept Asian drone study-machines.
Because that’s not what I see: I see involved, curious, caring, motivated, enthusiastic students who also attend the World Sudoku Tournament in Prague, breakdance and rap (in both Korean and English!), finish dinner quickly so they can get a quick game of 3-on-3 basketball before class, create (and finance) a literary magazine of their own volition because they want their classmates to see what inspires them so much in Natsuhiko Kyogoku’s The Shadow Spirit or Bernard Werber’s The Ants, make elaborate posters to advertise the brackets for the upcoming club activity-vs-club activity basketball tournament (tomorrow, I believe, the Movie Making club takes on the Traditional Korean Music club in a game that most students will break from their studies to attend), teach English to disadvantaged kids at a neighborhood center, email me in the middle of their summer vacation to ask me to recommend secondary texts on Deleuze and Guattari, care deeply about the future (and present) of their country, and anxiously await the invigorating challenge of flying thousands of kilometers and entering a US University as a first year student.
This narrative, I guess, isn’t as tidy.
May 6th, 2008 at 4:26 am
Joe,
Thank you for your commentary and your work, and an “untidy” narrative. I hope to hear more!
May 6th, 2008 at 4:31 am
Oh, and the surveillance cameras weren’t at Daewon, they were at our rival, Minjok :), and I think that was an incredibly bad policy and am heartened that they’ve done away with it.
May 6th, 2008 at 6:27 am
Joseph:
I feel very badly that you came along to see nothing but negative, critical comments, that IMO, had nothing to do with you. In fact, the interview, not only alleviates the disturbing impression left by the article, but also shows you to possess all the attributes one could hope for in an educator.
The ‘thing’ I find disturbing; the problem (if it exists), is one for which we should all take responsibility. And it has to do with ‘driving’ too many students, whether they are equipped with the intelligence or emotional maturity to handle it, towards a certain level of achievement; a certain ‘transcript’. And I see it across the boards, not just within particular communities or cultures.
Thank you for answering my questions. And thanks to Ben, for a thoughtful interview. I would like to hear more as well.
A few more questions, perhaps? :-)
Was the article a disappointment? What do the kids think of it? Is it, in fact, more gratifying to teach in such an environment? Do you see the students learning to ‘think for themselves’ rather than for the ‘SAT’s? Is there evidence (in the kids) that the pressure is too much?
May 6th, 2008 at 4:44 pm
Thanks to Ben for an excellent interview and to Joe for taking the time to answer questions. This is EphBlog at its best. Questions, mostly in reference to my thoughts on expanding international enrollment at Williams:
1) How many students are there in each grade in the GLP program? How many students in all of South Korea are in similar programs?
2) How many GLP students apply to Williams or other elite liberal arts colleges each year? How many are excepted? How many enroll?
3) Of all the students in GLP in a typical year, how many are qualified for Williams (as smart or smarter than the typical non-hooked Eph) and how many would be happy at Williams?
I am very interested in the knitty-gritty details of how many potential Ephs are in Korea and how we might attract them. I just have no idea of the numbers involved. We only want English-fluent students at Williams, but are there 100 or 1,000 or 10,000 such Koreans in each year. And, of those, how many are both Williams caliber and interested in coming to a small liberal arts college.
If we can get a rough sense of this (with Joe’s help) about Korea, then we can better estimate what an appropriate target is for both Korean students specifically and international students as a group for Williams.
By the way, does anyone know how many Korean nationals there are at Williams now?
May 6th, 2008 at 5:48 pm
Dave,
I don’t know the total, but according to my trusty ‘Facebook’ there are four Korean nationals in the class of ‘11.
Three are male, one is undetermined because of a missing photo.
May 6th, 2008 at 11:59 pm
I believe the numbers are 12 Ephs who list their home addresses in Korea:
2 ‘08
2 ‘09
3 ‘10
5 ‘11
a shift upwards…?
May 7th, 2008 at 11:01 pm
Sorry not to reply promptly.It’s a busy time for me–middle of the semester, getting married next week, ridding the world of super villains, etc.
1) How many students are there in each grade in the GLP program? How many students in all of South Korea are in similar programs?
Daewon’s GLP has between 98-130 per grade. Minjok (KMLA) is a bit smaller…maybe 75-80. These are the two top programs, but there are others — HAFS (Hanguk Academy of Foreign Studies), Ewha probably foremost among them. There are also international schools that turn out some top students, if not as many as the super-selective foreign language high schools.
There are a lot of “study-abroad” programs in Korea, but most are far less notable.
2) How many GLP students apply to Williams or other elite liberal arts colleges each year? How many are accepted? How many enroll?
The number of applicants is on the rise, maybe one third of our seniors apply to top liberal arts colleges (Swarthmore, Amherst, Williams, are, unsurprisingly, the favorites, but also Pomona, Middlebury, Bowdoin, Haverford, and Oberlin). This year we had one Williams acceptance, but I believe she’ll go to UPenn instead. I believe two or three got in to Amherst, but I don’t think anyone’s going there either. A couple are going to Swarthmore.
It’s still rare for a student to choose a top liberal arts school over an Ivy or equivalent big-name school, but that’s changing very quickly.
3) Of all the students in GLP in a typical year, how many are qualified for Williams (as smart or smarter than the typical non-hooked Eph) and how many would be happy at Williams?
Many — I’d say at least 1/3 of the graduating class — are as qualified and able as the typical non-hooked Eph. Fewer would be happy there, since most of our students are city kids (which explains the incredible popularity of NYU among our graduates). That said, we have plenty of students who are eager to escape the city, too. If I had to guess, I’d say we have 15-20 students a year who are both qualified for Williams and compatible with the Williams lifestyle.
Thanks again for your interest, everyone. I’ll try to check in again in the next few days.
May 8th, 2008 at 12:10 am
Joe:
I would still like to hear what the students thought of the NYT article.
It must have been a complicated mix of pride, and…something else…maybe chagrin?
Did they fully understand how it came across?
May 30th, 2008 at 12:37 am
I teach several Koreans (my favorite students) at my prep school here in Virginia, and I’m very interested in coming to Seoul to teach Spanish or English at Daewon. I have a PhD in Spanish (Vanderbilt and UofMichigan), 17 years of teaching experience, and I am fascinated by Koreans, their culture and language. Who can I contact about this? I want to make this happen. Thanks for an interesting interview. Congrats on your wedding.
May 30th, 2008 at 12:39 am
Here’s e-mail notification request, if Joe has the opportunity to reply to previous teaching inquiry. Mil gracias.
June 14th, 2008 at 12:32 pm
Kathleen–
please email me at joseph pm foster
AT g mail dot com (delete the spaces, etc.).
FROSH mom–
Yeah, I think my kids were a little embarrassed and a little proud (the latter much less demonstrably haha). They’re far too busy to dwell on it for long, though!
Sorry I didn’t respond right away…I’ve been very busy with school and oh yeah, I got married in May :)