Sun 11 May 2008
Was it only three years ago that posts like this used to appear on WSO?
If you want to get charged for after-party damages, get disgusted with vomit in bathrooms, and being left with no place to take shower or at least brush your teeth, then Spencer house is probably the right place for you to live. My email inbox is full of emails about damage charges in the house. Before going to bed, my stomach gets uncomfortable after facing the “shit” vomit in bathroom on weekend nights, and I lose my appetite for at least to meals sessions. Last night after leaving Schow library, I went to the bathroom on third floor of Spencer house where i faced the vomit in all over the bathroom- no spot for stepping in actually - yeq
Oh wait! That post was from yesterday, not three years ago.
Of course, for supporters of Neighborhoods, this post is inconceivable. It was only in the bad old days of free agency, when students lived where they wanted, and with whom they chose, that houses like Spencer lacked community. Didn’t Professor Will Dudley tell us (pdf) in 2005 that free agency was one of the causes of anti-social behavior, that free agency
gives them [students] a smaller stake in their local communities (which have become dormitory buildings filled with individuals and small groups, rather than houses filled with members), and a weaker incentive to get to know their neighbors (who are redistributed across campus every 9 months, rather than affiliated with each other for 3 years). Indeed, students frequently complain that they barely know the residents of their dorms outside of their own suites.
Yes, he did! Now that students have a stake, we should see less vomit in Spencer. Do we? I doubt it.
And this is the fundamental dishonesty of the process by which the Williams community has tried (and failed) to improve undergraduate social life. As I pointed out three years ago, the College has access to a great deal of high-quality data about student experiences. Why does the Administration continue to refuse to share that data with the wider community? If Neighborhood Housing, along with the many CUL-inspired policy changes which proceeded it, has truly made things better, then the data should demonstrate that fact. I bet that the data would show the opposite, that students at Williams were less happy with social life in 2007-2008 then they were a decade prior, before Morty, before the relentless attack on free agency began.
Show us the data.
May 11th, 2008 at 9:47 pm
David–
Nobody ever claimed that neighborhood housing would have immediate results. Things like “community” take a long time to form, and even the most convinced of the neighborhood housing proponents were clear about their beliefs that it would take a minimum of 4-5 years before many of the effects of neighborhood housing even started to become observable.
The only immediate changes that could have been expected to come from neighborhood housing would be an increased frequency and diversity of student-planned events on campus as well as significantly increased class-year diversity in the dorms. The vaguer benefits of Neighborhood Housing like “community” (which, it’s important to point out, wasn’t the only motivating factor for neighborhood housing) shouldn’t be expected to surface for another couple of years, at the very soonest.
May 11th, 2008 at 9:52 pm
I hate to disappoint all of my admirers here on Ephblog, but I don’t believe I have anything to add. The WSO Discussion speaks for itself.
May 11th, 2008 at 10:01 pm
On second thought:
The problem here is not the housing system. The problem is drunks who puke all over the place.
The solution, then, is not to “fix” the housing system, but to deal with the drunks, either by getting them to drink responsibly or simply by getting rid of them.
Efforts to fix the problem by tinkering with everything except the drunks are doomed to be a source continual frustration.
May 11th, 2008 at 10:41 pm
At Swarthmore, consumption of alcoholic beverages without suitably ironic attire or attitude is punished by deportation to Guantanamo Bay.
May 12th, 2008 at 12:03 am
The drunks resent the intolerant teetotallers who by their inconsiderate slipping and sliding interfere with the beautiful barf patterns (especially the peperone and mushroom pizza derived ones), which have been laid so carefully and imaginatively in the bathrooms.
May 12th, 2008 at 1:08 am
Evidently, they have their share of “vomit and vandalism” at Swarthmore…to the degree that they write about proper “vomit etiquette” in their newspaper.
Maybe hwc could start posting some of their articles and blog discussions here, alongside his regular links to The Record and WSO. This could be a real service to Ephs.
May 12th, 2008 at 6:31 am
The college has to do everything within its power, up to the very limit of the law, to facilitate safe, healthy drinking environments: mixed upper / underclassmen events, drinking in open at parties as opposed to dorm rooms or pre-gaming or drinking, spreading parties out so there are several options on any given weekend, encouraging beer instead of hard alcohol, encouraging stundents to use venues like the log and paresky basement. there has certainly always been problematic drinking at williams or any school like it, but when classes mix at a variety of large parties and security / police essentially are a little lax, I feel like the most troubling incidents are far more sporadic. The college and williamstown police seem to have cracked down on underage drinking, which only drives drinking underground and makes it more dangerous. There may be nothing they can do because of legal issues, but it is just a shame that the idiotic drinking laws, without a doubt, only make things far worse … between keg lines, getting full, dancing, and weak beer, getting wasted to the point of danger at a campus keg party or the log or the pub is far, far more difficult than doing so secreted away in a dorm room playing drinking games with vodka shots.
May 12th, 2008 at 6:57 am
They could (all together now), “—– —- ————”.
May 12th, 2008 at 10:28 am
Ahh, yes Frank, frats (which I assume is what you are referring to) are famous for their restrained, anti-binge drinking climate …
I am curious, does any other small school have an active a (1) student on-line discussion community as WSO and/or (2) an alumni-and-others on-line discussion blog as Williams? If the answer is no, what do folks think is the reason? Historical accident? One or two unusually motivated founders (Kane for Ephblog and the WSO founders in the late 90’s)? Too much time for introspection due to the isolation and intense bonding that occurs at Williams? Just sort of interested … because I imagine this sort of stuff happens at other colleges (Amherst, for example, had many similar incidents to Williams this year, including a homophobic attack on some Hampshire students and some athlete / non-athlete conflicts over civility, but so far as I know the alcohol culture, etc. isn’t discussed at nearly the same levels, at least in the on-line world, at Amherst …).
May 12th, 2008 at 12:21 pm
As a junior who took a year off due to my drunken idiot behavior I can tell you one thing with absolute certainty. The administration only cares about the fallout of incidents involving students. The alcohol policy remains the same, and only the handful of students lucky enough to get caught face the consequences, while dozens more continue their abusive behavior for the rest of the college career without interruption. Last year, upon my return to Williams, I felt energized, as though I had unique insights to help the administration prevent almost-deaths such as my own through policy change or simple input for a board or something. Instead, they tossed me around to the health center for “programming” which weall know is a nice way of telling someone, “Thanks for the idea but we already got something. Go play with Laini.”
Like the WSO discussion says, and like Catalina Vielma, Peter Shin, and others posted– Williams will only be forced to change once a student dies due to the alcohol abuse rampant on campus. It’s the sad truth. It will be a rude awakening to administrators and students alike when alcohol policy is shocked into change via a wrongful death lawsuit. It’s bound to happen.
May 12th, 2008 at 12:43 pm
The fraternity climates to which I have been significantly exposed empirically on a daily basis for extended periods at Williams and other universities seemed to produce fewer and less severe alcohol related problems than it appears are occurring currently at Williams. Jeff, what is your source, nature and depth of information on this score?
May 12th, 2008 at 1:05 pm
frank:
The national survey data suggests rather strongly that fraternities are a center of heavy drinking:
From the Harvard School of Public Health College Alcohol Survey (PDF)
I’m in favor of Williams returning to a fraternity system with privately owned frat houses. Not because it will reduce drinking, but because it will get the heavy drinking element out of the dorms so that non-drinkers and moderate-drinkers in the student body can escape it if they so choose.
May 12th, 2008 at 1:31 pm
Jeff: The Swarthmore Daily Jolt is a student online community (whose quality and commentary are far, far below those of WSO) that you’ll never see mentioned by hwc. Its “discussants” comment on topics like the recent assault and near-abduction of an Asian student, “hottest girls,” “best/worst xucks” and other crude and immature subjects.
The various Williams venues (The Record, WSO, ephblog) are at least noteworthy for their (with some exceptions) intelligent discussion of the issues college communities face.
May 12th, 2008 at 1:47 pm
Administration Lover:
The sad thing is that if/when a student dies, alcohol policy will probably become more restrictive, which is probably the most counterproductive response possible.
May 12th, 2008 at 2:28 pm
This is an area that administration after administration at Williams has struggled with (or just ignored) without any success. How do we use the Log? How do we have a variety of social options available to the entire campus, both over and under 21? Now, how to maximize the use of Paresky and Goodrich … there are now so many great spaces on or near campus, I hope the student body and the ever growing staff of student life coordinators does some hard, creative, novel thinking about social life on campus, because for all the new paid employees working on these issues, it seems as if social options have decreased rather than increased in recent years …
If nothing else, I’d divert some of the money from the nearly-complete fundraising campaign to bringing more, and more high-profile, comedians, bands, speakers, performers, entertainers to either campus or nearby venues like MassMoca … brings the campus together, beats drinking like crazy, and diffuses probably the single biggest concerns prospectives have about Williams, which is the isolation … how about a weekly Log series with a just-starting-out indie band or comedian, for example? If they want to hire a student life coordinator, find someone with awesome taste and lots of connections who can bring all kinds of undiscovered musical and artistic talent to campus on a periodic basis … how sweet would that be?
May 12th, 2008 at 2:47 pm
The Daily Jolt is a national website that runs Daily Jolt forums for 200 colleges.
Williams doesn’t have a Daily Jolt because it was started by two Amherst students.
The Daily Jolt forums are well known to be cesspools of pimply-faced teenage boy “humor”. Sane students on any of these campuses don’t go near the Daily Jolt.
Since I know you are interested, here’s a link to quite a few Swarthmore blogs
Both the the Phoenix weekly student paper and the Daily Gazette daily on-line news service now have comments and discussions linked to every article.
There is also an alumni community forum, but it is restricted to alumni and requires an initial log in with an alumni number.
May 12th, 2008 at 2:57 pm
Administration Lover—
What were your ideas?
This seems to me the most reasonable way to go forward. If you feel the administration did not listen to good ideas, make them public. I find it hard to believe you would have trouble getting even a one on one meeting with President Schapiro if you had ideas for mitigating what is unarguably the greatest threat to the life of Williams students.
If you are still following this post, please consider outlining what you think the College could do to make a safer drinking culture, unless you have a forum you prefer.
In my experience, though, the administration actually catches more flak for this than they deserve. Jeff writes
The problem he dispenses with in the first sentence is just such a huge problem. I don’t think there is anyone in the administration who doesn’t take the risk of alcohol death less seriously than we. I don’t think it’s a problem of priorities, and hardly really a problem of ideas.
There’s a larger force here: how good is “the administration” at influencing social behavior, period? I’m serious. Let’s not ever look to a governing body to have tools honed enough to intelligently modify something as fine and private as how we drink. They can’t. Or at the very least, they can’t do it better than we can, and we’re pretty bad at it aren’t we? This is one area where I don’t think blame belongs to the administration. In my mind, the willingness to give great attention and resources is there. The task of taking those resources and turning them into programs such as what Jeff suggests is on the students. It is not for “the administration” to revive the Log.
If Administration Lover has a story that counters my experience, I do wish to hear it.
What will stop admins from doing what students in my time felt they should is the huge liability associated with alcohol. I can’t blame them. If there were a clear path to eliminating, or nearly eliminating, the risk of alcohol death, I think the school would take it. But we all know there will be one someday, whatever anyone does. The ramifications of whether it occurs at the liability of official or unofficial policy or not is a detail the College can’t afford to ignore. And this, and the necessary scrutiny of them by the law even before a death, takes a lot of options off the table, in a way that students in my time did not understand.
May 12th, 2008 at 3:03 pm
“The Daily Jolt forums are well known to be cesspools of pimply-faced teenage boy ‘humor’. Sane students on any of these campuses don’t go near the Daily Jolt.”
Not so with the Amherst Daily Jolt. Their level of discourse is several times higher than that of Swarthmore’s.
It is obviously a direct reflection of the composition of each respective school’s student body.
May 12th, 2008 at 3:14 pm
johnathan ‘05:
My question, and it really is a question, because I don’t know the answer:
In the college guidebooks, Williams in portrayed as a school where smart students study hard and party like a Kennedy.
This is a very attractive marketing position, one that has proven itself to be success for many schools including, for example, Dartmouth and Duke.
So my question, and again it is an honest question: Does Morty want to intentially promote this brand identity? I know that he is enough of an expert at marketing colleges and universities that he has thought about it.
If there is a conscious choice to market “Work Hard/Play Hard” as the school’s brand (and, again, I don’t know that to be the case), then the College will have live with a certain amount of collateral damagae in support of the party scene.
May 12th, 2008 at 3:21 pm
“like a Kennedy”
The Kennedys have never been associated with Williams. You’ll need to start using (impugning?) another family’s name.
May 12th, 2008 at 3:36 pm
Not really. Like I say, 95% of Swarthmore students view the Daily Jolt like they do the frat lodges: places to be avoided like the plague.
Amherst’s may be different since it started there. I doubt that the original concept was a forum specifically for jack asses, but that’s how it evolved when it went national.
Take a look at Brown’s. There’s a stimulating discussion on penis size on the front page.
May 12th, 2008 at 3:36 pm
hwc,
I really have no insight into the imagined situation you describe, and I try to post here only on what I do have specific insight into. My sense is that your hypothetical supposes more than I’d be motivated to affirm.
May 12th, 2008 at 3:38 pm
“Party like a Kennedy” is one of our wicked awesome Massachusetts expressions.
May 12th, 2008 at 3:42 pm
“a stimulating discussion on penis size”
You’ve just communicated more of your personal information than I ever cared to know.
May 12th, 2008 at 3:46 pm
I was a pun.
May 12th, 2008 at 3:50 pm
Jonathan, I agree that top-down social engineering is unlikely to be terribly successful, and that the drinking laws are the biggest obstacle to administrative action to improve things. But I still believe that the administration can try some creative options to improve the situation. And to the extent the administration has invested a LOT of money in a large campus life staff, I’d like to see that money used wisely: less staff, more really cool events to drawn a wide variety of students out to the many very cool spaces that now exist on campus, in particular Goodrich when it reopens, Currier Ballroom, and the Log. I would take all of the salaries being spent on student life personnel, hire one experienced event planner with connections whose sole job is to find and recruit to campus really interesting entertainers on a semi-regular basis, and use any left over funds to pay for bigger and better acts to come to campus.
How about an all-day outdoors music extravaganza that ends and starts early to avoid noise complaints? There are so many creative ways to plan entertainment and I just think the college doesn’t think outside the box. I don’t really get what all the student life coordination staff does, if not this, because as far as I can tell there are no more, and possibly less, creative social events that are big draws for students then there were before there was any hired campus life professionals whatsoever on campus …
May 12th, 2008 at 3:59 pm
Going back to the original post, I think Neighborhoods have not been successful on a variety of levels, and the administration agrees.
However, they have been successful in undoing the “themed” housing that characterized past years, from what I read. The system does have issues that we will push for changes on, and I intend to do that next year.
May 12th, 2008 at 4:14 pm
Jonathan,
I’m actually in the middle of trying to really nail down my ideas. I’m hesitant to go to the Administration again (for obvious reasons) and am trying to seek a more public, open way of getting this issue discussed next year. Maybe a record op-ed, maybe starting a club (hilarious group titles welcomed) or a mocking poster job. I need to be cautious though… I have more than a healthy sense of paranoia toward the Administration (hence not my real name here) since they read WSO, ephblog, etc. daily.
As soon as I have a safe, open, and viable source of tossing out my ideas I will. I want to do some more research into other colleges and statistics before I do though. The last thing I want is to come out and say my piece, only to get nailed on some silly statistic.
I also agree with the point someone made that governing bodies can’t really control the social tendencies of a group. I love, love, love the idea of an all-day outdoor festival of sorts. I also think way too much money is spent on non-essential personnel in campus life, when we could use that money to get big names to Williams. I know I was so excited for Third Eye Blind, could you imagine how excited this campus would be about, oh, a 2000s era performer?!?!
May 12th, 2008 at 4:26 pm
Truly, Will? If anything could smash affiliation by interests, the battery of Room Draw restrictions that came with anchor housing could, but is the landscape today really different? It’ll take some years to be sure, by seeing if houses have a character that endures through Room Draws, but even now are there really not “party houses”? I would just be so surprised if this ever goes away, because there will always be houses with party spaces and those without. In my mind, and I’m possibly overlooking something, if it ever comes to pass that non-partiers and partiers are distributed evenly through houses, it means non-partiers are suffering more than they used to under free agency, when loud, late events are thrown in their house.
Jeff, we agree on a lot, including our lack of faith in mid-level professional social facilitators to meaningfully impact socializing on campus, but even above you keep using the phrase “the college needs to…” and I want to be clear on what you mean by that. What do you mean when you say “the college doesn’t think outside the box”? Is that a criticism of student social planners or the paid professional CUL staff? I place my faith in the former, and thus place the onus there also.
In my mind, professional social staff need to train students in the mechanics and technicals of good event running, and occasionally handle some of those technicals. This includes advertising, handing over control of a group, booking professionals from off campus, and the other things that 20 years olds have no prior experience with.
Now, mark, students can and have done all this themselves—Ching Ho, Drew Newman, Adam Grogg were all famous social planners, all who learned from predecesors and trained successors in all these things, unpaid for their efforts. But without paid college staff, provision of such skills will be spotty over the years, failing in some when the right people don’t step forward. The College, capital C, cannot replace these people or their ideas. It can only try to make the conditions right for new to step forwards and be cultivated.
When it comes to unsafe drinking, students are both the cause of and solution to the problem, more than they are to most on campus. It’s really up to them to fix in the end, by the simple fact that no one else can, if anyone at all can.
David, now would probably be a good time to post on/resurrect the 2004 CUL report on alcohol at the college. The one Dean Roseman basically tabled indefinitely.
May 12th, 2008 at 4:39 pm
The rock n’ roll industry has priced itself out of the collee market. It would have been cheaper do charter ten buses and send everyone to a concert in Boston than the 3rd Eye Blind show.
Ahhhh…the good ol’ days. Pink Floyd in Chapin Hall. Stevie Wonder in Lansing Rink.
The daylong outdoor “festival” is certainly do-able. You just have to do indie bands.
May 12th, 2008 at 4:40 pm
I’d also add that of the three people Jonathan mentioned, at least two of them worked prominently with the college staff on much of their social planning. College staff who have knowledge of event planning and see their role (or have their role defined as ) facilitating student initiatives are and have been helpful. Those who see (or have their role defined as ) providing social programming are not nearly as useful/efficient.
When a group of us wanted to put on a hip hop concert, the support (and I emphasize support–they helped us understand the contract issues, book the space, etc. and in no way planned a damn thing for us) of the activities office (Rich and the calendar girls as we all lovingly referred to them) was critical to our success. That model shouldn’t have been thrown out in its entirety, but I worry that it has–what student picks third eye blind as their show in 2007/8?
The college administration’s duty, just as it is on the academic side should be to create the opportunity (hire faculty, provide classes, etc.) for student initiative, not control it.
May 12th, 2008 at 4:41 pm
I think Jeff is right on the money…that providing more ‘to do’ would go a long way towards solving the drinking problem.
Are there agencies or companies (other than the atist’s reps) that book and arrange entertainment events for smaller colleges like Williams? Between all those small, eastern schools, you could keep a comedian and/or a band booked for weeks at a time. Could be a good business.
May 12th, 2008 at 4:42 pm
Ha! speaking of chartering buses, Ching Ho, in one of his more impressive social planning roles, actually did that for a trip to Montreal for students!
May 12th, 2008 at 4:43 pm
I think we basically agree Jonathan. I think one full time employee who is a very experienced event planner (not someone right out of college, but maybe someone who has booked acts at clubs for a few years or something) who has the right expertise and right network could serve really well in this facilitator role, and then take all the rest of the money that is spent on social administrative salaries and overhead, and give it to students to bring more (rotating small, weekly jazz / comedy / rock / etc. events at Log / Goodrich / Currier) and better (once a semester all-day outdoor concert with bands that will get the whole campus buzzing for a few weeks in advance, plus maybe one huge comedian over winter study) events to campus.
May 12th, 2008 at 7:11 pm
This is an interesting discussion to read, primarily because of the number of student leaders from the early 00s (03, 04, 05) posting here. As a student who was lucky (or unlucky) enough to be involved in planning the campus social scene both before the Office of Campus Life started taking a prominent role and after, it’s fascinating to see how much has changed on campus since 2004 or so.
From my experience, the Office of Campus Life is no longer a support organization, but rather a supervisory institution. The difference between these two may seem subtle or inconsequential, but it’s enormously important. When I was a freshman and a sophomore, student leaders were the primary drivers behind everything that happened on campus. However, as the OCL grew, this began to change–again and again I heard about events and initiatives imagined and executed by the OCL. As the OCL has taken a greater and greater role in planning–and become more and more restrictive of student-imagined events–fewer students have taken on the mantle of leadership at Williams. Obviously the OCL means well…but it’s a very sad sight to see. During my first two years at Williams I very strongly believed that there was no better place than Williams for a student-leader. Now, just two years later, I’m not so sure anymore.
The question is, given that the OCL is unlikely to go anywhere anytime soon, how can we best re-empower students to be leaders on campus? For all of its failings, the neigbhorhood system seems to have a lot of potential for this (and there have been some wonderful leaders who came through the system in recent years, such as the current CC co-President Peter Nurnberg)…but I think it’s clear that the Neighborhood System alone isn’t going to be a solution to this issue.
May 12th, 2008 at 9:39 pm
Spending so much time in “Music City,” I do happen to know a few booking agents, my favorite of whom was quite surprised to see the figures being thrown around in the CC minutes. A cursory exam of 3EB’s schedule reveals they regularly play gigs whose door is less that $20K, so… looks like the phenomenon we have here may be more one of price differentiation wherein NESLACs have driven up cost in their narrow niche.
May 12th, 2008 at 11:06 pm
Ken,
I’d throw in! I’m tellin ya…there’s some money (and fun) to be had here.
‘Kings of Leon’, perhaps? :-@
May 12th, 2008 at 11:11 pm
Amen to Jeff Z’s entire last comment.
May 13th, 2008 at 1:03 am
Seconded — sounds potentially exciting for current students. I hope Morty — or whoever has the authority to make changes in the OCL’s structure/function — is reading. Something like what Jeff is proposing just may be a big part of a solution to a lingering campus problem.
May 13th, 2008 at 8:19 am
During open houses, road shows, and information sessions in recent years, Admission personnel have placed enormous emphasis on the notion that Williams is “student run.” That now seems to be verging on “bait and switch.”
At the high school level, I have seen what happens when parents and other adults take over the planning. Students do not learn initiative, and rising leaders and administrators are not incubated. Money (and often glitz) is emphasized over creativity, innovation, and risk-taking (in the positive sense of “risk-taking”). Along with this often comes a culture of entitlement and whining, rather than a culture of engagement, production, and pride. Things that are “awesome” because they are produced by peers and because the students have a stake in them and understand what went into them don’t happen, and the adults’ products are held to extremely high standards and often are subject more to downside comments than praise unless they are over-the-top (in which case they tend to intimidate the students from trying something on their own).
Williams is not high school, but I am seeing a somewhat similar pattern, substituting the campus life professionals (who are as well-meaning as the high school adults, but seem just as crippling) . Help with contract negotiations and practicalities? Yes. Help with logistics? Yes. Running a master calendar and space booking coordinator? Yes. Compiling and sharing with students planning sheets and check lists on how to run various types of events? Yes. Facilitating interactions with other branches of the administration (Facilities, Security, Food Services, the printing shop, etc.)? Yes. Helping to act as an institutional memory? Yes. Helping to figure out ways to prevent damage/theft/injury, etc.? Yes. Helping figure out how to fund activities? Yes. Maintaining an annotated master list of where to obtain various types of ancillary supplies and services? Yes. Let a (greatly reduced) professional staff do those sorts of things, working with student leaders, and then step back.
And the College desperately needs to develop a stable of various sizes of event spaces that can be used without bothering the neighbors (whether college students, in the case of events held in and around the College’s dorms, or the wider community) and without exposing nonparticipating students to large damage claims (and disgustingly fouled bathrooms and hallways) merely by reason of living in a building that has a large party space. Fix these problems and campus life will improve considerably.
May 13th, 2008 at 8:22 am
Remember the Tablecloth Colors!
May 13th, 2008 at 8:41 am
I think we all agree — a rarity at Williams. I do hope the administration is listening. It just makes too much sense not to reallocate resources and responsibility as everyone is suggesting. Although at places like Williams, it seems like it is a lot easier to add administrative bodies than it is to take them away, so I am not terribly optimistic.
May 13th, 2008 at 8:42 am
Meant to say, a rarity at Ephblog, although the same thing probably holds true!
May 13th, 2008 at 9:25 am
One more point. My sense, and correct me if I’m wrong, that the student life coordinators hired by the college do not have any particular expertise in the functions listed by Larry, or those additional functions I listed (contacts in the music / comedy fields, etc.), but rather, are either young college grads with little real-world experience, or are trained in more touchy-feely social networking areas. I just don’t see what that type of value someone like that adds. When I was a student I was treasurer of the student activities counsel, which was a great experience, but a little scary at times when I was managing large sums of money or looking at contracts with bands when I had no real clue what I was doing. Someone who can provide some guidance in these areas, who can be a resource with questions like, can anything in this contract lead to real trouble, or is this demand reasonable, or would be great, but not someone who usurps the basic planning function of the student body …
May 13th, 2008 at 9:33 am
Jeff Z–you are correct. The CLCs are generally highly motivated, very excited, recent college grads. Many of them were campus planners themselves at their home universities, and they bring that desire to create great things with them to Williams. Unfortunately, as we’ve discussed, that doesn’t necessarily result in great things, but instead, takes power and control away from students.
The question I ask those on these boards is: what should we do about this? If all we have is hoping that the administration is reading this and will take it into account…well, we’re screwed. For better or for worse, the administration is not one of ephblog’s biggest fans (and while they might be reading this, they are extremely unlikely to take anything said on these boards to heart).
May 13th, 2008 at 9:34 am
Very exciting, Jeff!
It could make sense for some sort of coordination to take place with the other colleges that are within, say, a ‘few-hour’ radius. You stand a better chance of getting, and affording, good acts if they are guaranteed a ‘tour’.
I suppose that is really up to the ‘booking agents’ Ken is talking about…but, it wouldn’t hurt to consider making that part of the ‘pitch’. If it caught on, it could lower the booking fee by a lot.
May 13th, 2008 at 10:04 am
Current Eph, there is the rub. If you and a lot of other current students feel this way, you could begin lobbying the administration for a change in CLC hiring practices (after all these are the administrators who work closest with students, and if student leaders suggested fewer CLC’s, at least one with entertainment planning focus and real world experience and contacts, and more budget for speakers, comedians, and bands, perhaps the administration would at least consider it), although I am not sure how much impact that would ultimately have. Certainly a better chance than by us just posting here. I guess alumni could question Morty about this at periodic gatherings … the best bet may be to get an influential donor to earmark a huge donation for campus life with certain stipulations — hedge fund managers, are you reading???
May 13th, 2008 at 10:05 am
ahh memories!
So the system Jeff is proposing is very similar to the one I worked with in the early part of this decade. There certainly were flaws–Ching’s personal preferences probably controlled a little too much of the social scene of williams looking back and paying for a random weekend party was a little tricky–but for the concert type of events, it seemed like a great success.
Speaking of those successes, not only did we get the Roots to play (amazing show even with the crappy acoustics), but after the breakdancing group got Jurassic Five, we linked up with a student from MCLA and put on an underground hip hop show the next year.
There were some parts of that show I didn’t enjoy (Sage Francis getting booed and performing a too long set which led to me having to tell another performer–who turned out to be really cool about it–he might not get to perform and only having about 50 people left when the main act was on), but it was an amazing experience and for those of us who went, it was a lot of fun (except for sage francis’ set. it was terrible. seriously, i have no idea what he was thinking).
Part of the problem, though, was that the student leaders of my years did complain about being overworked. For example, it would have been much better for me to have some backup when the sound guys were going to cut it off 30 minutes early and security thought it ended at midnight not 1 and I had to tell performers to shorten their sets. Having a college student deal with that was an interesting immersion process, but one I would have rather avoided doing by myself.
So I understood the impetus for the creationg of the OCL and CLCs–student leaders who put on these events were complaining A LOT about burnout. I think, perhaps, the pendulum swung a little too much to the other side.
(also, there used to be a one day outdoor concert in the spring. it was very poorly attended because williams/williamstown really doesn’t have as much of an indie/college music scene as other schools might have)
(also–sorry–amherst and friends likely won’t be interested in playing along because UMass and Northampton already have a thriving music/comedy/tour scene).
The one thing I’d say is that the best way for students to implement something like what Jeff is proposing is to just do it. Go outside the box, set up a concert and if the OCL or CLCs or whoever try to get in your way (which, I’d bet, they won’t), go public–no student will support bureaucracy over the opportunity for another concert. Student initiative is needed, regardless of whether or not there is too much or too little administrative effort.
May 13th, 2008 at 10:06 am
By the way, current eph, I don’t doubt that the administration is not a huge fan of Ephblog (no one really enjoys their performance being scrutinized so openly, and of course there have been a few threads that have gotten totally out of control, particularly those with harsh critique of prospective students or high schoolers), but I’m curious what the basis is for that statement. Has the administration openly expressed disapproval of the site?
May 13th, 2008 at 10:22 am
“(also-sorry-amherst and friends likely won’t be interested in playing along because UMasss and Northampton already have a thriving music/comedy/tour scene)
If this is the case, then it is a great opportunity. Talk to them, learn from them, find out who they have booked, and try to become part of that ‘tour’.
Most of the good acts need to be booked way in advance…pretty hard to sustain through students who are not only overloaded, but come and go as well.
May 13th, 2008 at 10:48 am
While I don’t think connecting with Pearl Street is a golden bullet (a lot of those tours head south from there or head to boston, not west), it would be very smart to have as part of someone’s job a liaison role with Mass MoCA, Pearl Street, wherever in Albany tours go (I don’t know if there is a single place) to check in every once in a while to see if a band or comedian or whatever had an open night in their tour. Even a 20% success rate would be a huge bonus to the williams social calendar.
Part of why Williams often pays too much for concerts, as Ken notes it does, is that (at least when I was there) we scheduled shows for our schedule (we want a show in the spring!) not for the touring acts schedule (oh, you have a free tuesday? sure! come on by!).
A final note–it’d be great if somehow, and I don’t know how to do it, Williams had a “scene” for eclectic acts. Flight of the Conchords, for example, did a tour before their HBO show…I’m sure (considering the location of their show in Philly and that I heard it didn’t sell out) they’d have been willing to go to Williamstown (side note: I met them–they’re really cool. they’d have loved it) on that tour. The key is not only to get groups before they hit it big BUT ALSO to have a scene where you know 200 or so students will come to a concert, no matter who it is just because those concerts are normally high quality.
it takes a commitment to do it for a couple years so as to get the word going, but it’d be such a nice addition. however, as a student organizer, to do so takes so much effort and to put in those hours and then have only 50 students show up would suck.
May 13th, 2008 at 11:17 am
Rory, once again, agreed 100 percent on all fronts. I believe Williams could, in particular, do a lot more to coordinate with MassMoca, which has great performance venues / calendar, and is, after all, only ten minutes from campus. Perhaps some joint events with MCLA …
May 13th, 2008 at 11:33 am
Re: #51
So why not have lower level campus life employees do the checking? Treat those positions as more like the alumni relations or admissions post-graduation year-long internships. Have someone who can develop (and leave an annotated list of) contacts who book in the Purple Valley, the Pioneer Valley, in the Albany region, at Bennington, at Midd, and so forth. They could find out what was happening and bring lists to students to consider. It could work the other way, too, with students who were interested in a group asking the campus life intern to put feelers out for a shared mini-tour. Williams could actually become the center of a small regional marketing group, which should have advantages in cost and attractiveness of the area to performers. Other angles would be to develop and nurture contacts in Hartford, New York, Boston, and Montreal so that Williams could become an add-on or prelude to more major engagements, again using lower level staff to do the legwork.
May 13th, 2008 at 11:49 am
yes. that’d be ideal.
One other thing that’d be helpful is a transportation system between the possible concert venues that was reliable and advertised–for example, before every mass moca friday/saturday evening event (and 30 minutes after it concludes), there’d be a bus (or two or more depending on the event) from paresky to Mass MoCa. as that relationship strengthens, the bus system could expand to include bennington, etc.
(of course, this would be a hybrid environmentally friendly bus! lol)
as a student performer, I got to perform at Mass MoCA once (that’s where some of the breakdancing footage was taken, btw, frosh mom). it was a lot of fun to perform off campus. a lot of logistics (handled admirably by the dance department), but a lot of fun. with their new space, tho, that might not be as exciting to current students.
all this typing and reminiscing gone, I do want to say that when I was there, a lot of amazing social events did come to campus. One of the problems is that it isn’t a silver bullet re: drinking problems. For example, when DJ Spooky premiered his remix of birth of a nation to hip hop and then attended a post-show party on campus, that was an amazing event (another amazing co-operation between Williams and Mass MoCA, btw). avant garde yet accessible. indie, yet relatively well known. the people who drank to excess and throw up all over bathrooms? they didn’t go.
and now, after focusing on williams’ social calendar and why doc rivers needs to be fired all morning, it’s time to do some actual work!
May 13th, 2008 at 11:49 am
Larry:
Some sort of permanent position, whether it be there at the college, or otherwise…along with hooking up with other ’stops’,(insuring a ‘tour’ of sorts for the acts) is, (IMHO!) the key, to sustainability and to keeping the costs affordable.
May 13th, 2008 at 11:57 am
Rory:
I really think you need to share that footage.
I’ve offered $25.00…what more could you want?
Seriously… the time has come. I say, bring it forth!
May 13th, 2008 at 12:21 pm
i don’t think i even have it any more.
May 13th, 2008 at 1:45 pm
Says he. Come on. It’s around somewhere. It’s spring cleaning time at your place if you can’t put your hands right on it. What are you asking in terms of our making donations to the College to get you to pony up?
May 13th, 2008 at 2:26 pm
Re #48, #50, #53: Amherst College actually also booked Third Eye Blind for a campus concert a short time after they appeared at Williams earlier this year. I agree that the idea of a “regional” college circuit (even extending down into the CT schools such as Wesleyan and Yale, with whom a lot of the Williams student groups already share participation in various events/endeavors) is potentially valuable to all involved, both in terms of scheduling and economic advantages.
I also think that a weekly Williams event such as Jeff mentioned earlier would be valuable as a dependable, constant fixture of the social scene that all ephs and visitors as well could look forward to enjoying.
May 13th, 2008 at 3:35 pm
I always find the event-planning discussions fascinating. When there was very little institutional support for the planning (by which I mean staff, a real student activities office - we had ACE, Goodrich committee, etc.), students complained that it was too much work for the students and wanted there to be designated staff (my time ‘97-’01). Now that there is staff to do it, people complain it isn’t student-run enough. I would guess that it will continue to swing one way, then the other as it corrects each time there is a push in any direction.
I will admit that the balance of student input/staff support needs fixing, but I think having anyone on staff to handle details from the college’s perspective(contracts, booking, liability insurance, etc.) is good thing - assuming such staff is competent.
May 13th, 2008 at 4:37 pm
Although booking and arranging events may be “too much work for the students”, it would also be impractical for other reasons.
Getting good acts consistently, relies a lot on connections made; nurtured relationships, and ‘tricks of the trade’. Also, the planning takes time. You need to book pretty far in advance. A student is in and out of Williams in too short a time to ‘build’ all that, and make the most of it. They could certainly be part of the job (and learn some very valuable skills in the process), but it would be most advantageous to have someone permanent overseeing the whole thing.
It could even be someone willing to make a business out of it… providing the service for a “regional college circuit”. Of course, then you would still need a liason at each school…and so…
May 13th, 2008 at 5:02 pm
College students, including Williams students, have been booking music acts since the beginning of time. This is not rocket science.
Large scale events have gotten difficult for the budgets of small colleges. However, putting together a series of indie rock and hip/hop acts from the club/college circuit is pretty routine stuff.
May 13th, 2008 at 5:18 pm
FM - actually, the pre-OCL system allowed entrepeneurial students (like Drew Newman, who ran ACE a few years ago, or the board of WCFM) to gain a tremendous amount of expertise and experience by booking acts and organizing events on their own initiative. A full-time professional is completely unnecessary when there are enough bright and energetic undergrads who could do it.
May 13th, 2008 at 5:19 pm
I guess that explains why everyone on this thread, including those who have done it already, are trying to figure out how to make it happen on a consistent basis.
Actually hwc, it isn’t that easy to plan and execute events of this scale. I know people who do it for a living.
But, since it comes so easily to you, why don’t you volunteer your services? What a nice thing to do for Williams.
May 13th, 2008 at 5:25 pm
Ronit, my post above was directed to hwc.
As far as your comment, I fully believe students are capable, I just don’t think it is as advantageous as having someone who ‘knows the ropes’, who builds on the job, training and utilizing the students while they are there, but not losing the momentum and the connections, once they leave.
May 13th, 2008 at 5:27 pm
Even if a full-time professional would arguably have some advantages, it is better from an educational standpoint to give students full control over such events. This kind of organizational work is tremendous preparation for the real world.
May 13th, 2008 at 5:48 pm
Fully agree, Ronit. :-)
Meanwhile, since hwc is going to volunteer his efforts, I am going to supply him with a partial checklist. Feel free, everyone, to add to it as this is just off the top of my head.
Legal work
liability
accounting
budgeting
contracts
permits
agent negotiations
performers
security
rentals
staging
sound
lighting
scaffolding
possible special effects
weather cover
crew and performer accommodations
crew and performer transportation
restrooms
ticket sales
Again, this is a two minute list. I am sure there is more…
May 13th, 2008 at 6:07 pm
We are talking about booking bar/club bands in a venue like Goodrich that holds a few hundred people. It takes someone who knows music and is tuned into the varied tastes of a college campus — kind of like running the campus radio station. Usually a resident campus indie rock guru.
I looked up one college this afternoon. All student run with a student manager of the venue who does the booking for the year.
Ten shows per year, five per semester. A headline act and a warm-up band for each show. Bands that are known in indie rock circles, maybe with an CD release. Budget for the year is $28,000, funded out of student activities fees, free admission at the door. Other student groups use the same venue on open weekends to promote similiar kinds of shows.
A separate student committee handles the annual outdoor concert on the Saturday after classes end in the spring. Outdoor covered stage. Ten bands or so, covering a wide range of music from singer/songwriter to bluegrass to world music to hip hop to indie rock…something for everyone. Runs all afternoon with keilbasa grilling, beer, etc.
Williams students have done all this stuff. All colleges do it.
May 13th, 2008 at 6:21 pm
hwc:
Then it must be one heck of a well-run, well-established committee, with all the kinks worked out.
And my guess is, there is someone at the helm bringing consistency and sustainability to the process.
Someone like you, hwc! Gather the info and pass it along to the students at Williams…post it here. Make it happen instead of just talking about it. You obviously have some time on your hands.
Of course, I would let them pick the acts.
May 13th, 2008 at 6:59 pm
I don’t think so. Just passed along from outgoing student manager to incoming student manager. I’m sure the finance office probably looks over contrats, but — again — we aren’t talking about booking bar bands. It’s not rocket science. At any given time, there’s a roster of bands doing the college/club circuit. Hell, ask Frank. Fraternities have been booking bands since the days of Bass Weejuns. He probably booked some himself.
I was on the committee that booked bands in high school.
Here’s an example of a Boston-based booking agent that handles both regional acts (bar bands) and national acts for colleges in the area.
May 13th, 2008 at 7:17 pm
hwc:
That’s an event planning company, an outside service…just what I was talking about. They would handle production. You didn’t mention that in your “It’s not rocket science” post.
If the money is there for an event planner, then, you’re right, it’s not a big deal. The student committee would have minimal duties.
May 13th, 2008 at 7:24 pm
In the 50s it was customary that the fraternities acting separately or in concert with one another booked (and paid and provided performance space for) bands without the help of the College for the four (Fall House Parties, Homecoming, Winter Carnival, Spring House Parties) major social weekends at the College - about 6-8 bands for both Saturday afternoon and also Saturday evening, about 4-6 for Friday evening and about 2-4 for Sunday brunch/afternoon.
May 13th, 2008 at 7:34 pm
In my recollection the Deke house always dealt directly (by the Chairman or Co-chairmen of its Social Committee) with the bands or their managers without its hiring an intermediary such as a planning service - the effort was no extraordinary deal.
May 13th, 2008 at 7:47 pm
These days, and really since at least the early 1970s, colleges work through a booking agency that helps match up the college’s budget (and taste) with the current roster of bands from the Boston, New York, Philly club scenes. The booking agent takes a percentage of the fee in exchange for dealing with the contracts, making sure the band shows up, has what it needs, and so forth.
I strongly suspect that the booking agent relationship provides much of the continuity and knowledge base.
The actual settlement check from the college may well go straight to the booking agent.
The student manager or committee would sit down with the booking agent at the beginnning of the semester, lay out the dates, the budget, and range of shows (one hip-hop, one edgey indie rock, one dance band, yadda yadda) and they come up with a schedule.
May 13th, 2008 at 8:06 pm
Like I said, I know what an event planner does. I wasn’t aware that a “booking agent” supplied the same services. Where I come from, (at least from my experience!) agents and planners are different things. The only thing they have in common is that they all want LOTS of money.
But again, if an event planner/booking agent is affordable, then it’s a piece of cake, minimal duties for a committee.
May 13th, 2008 at 8:14 pm
For the first event of 08/09 I propose a cage fight between frosh mom and HWC, no holds barred. Kane vs. the staff of the MCC on the undercard …
May 13th, 2008 at 8:15 pm
Again, we are talking about bar bands, here. They show up, schlep their amps in, play rock n’ roll, get paid, go home.
It’s a process repeated thousands of times each night all across America (and the world).
It’s not rocket science!
May 13th, 2008 at 8:21 pm
There’s a slight disconnect between here and the realities on the ground. One of my fellow frosh is soliciting for ideas for next year right now, and I know some of this year’s concerts were (at least almost) entirely liasoned through students.
The college has a major interest that it doesn’t get in trouble over a bad contract, but that’s a different area.
May 13th, 2008 at 8:33 pm
Jeff,
Actually, I thought we were doing fine. I actually learned something here.
But, I’m done. All bets are off.
Goodbye!
May 13th, 2008 at 8:35 pm
Will - Good to hear someone’s doing something. Is that because of frustration with the “system”?
May 13th, 2008 at 10:53 pm
Well, the “system” is being changed for next year (see the Record article from a few weeks back), and I’m sure other changes are coming.
It’s more about managing different needs - the college has more control (and can produce/force results) from staff it can direct - cultivating student leadership is much more difficult from an administration standpoint.
That said, there are attempts to do just that, but I think one effective step might be to step back, and let students fill the gulf. That’s much easier said than done; we’ll see what happens, and finals are eating our brains at the moment.
May 13th, 2008 at 11:53 pm
Laissez-nous faire is probably the best way to “cultivate” student leadership.
May 14th, 2008 at 7:50 am
Good luck this week, Will (and other current Ephs).