Mon 9 Jun 2008
There is a line I hear from anti-war people who believe they can neatly separate their condemnation of the war from criticism of the volunteers in our army: “I support the troops; I don’t support the war.” Hearing this said has always bothered me deeply because the dual sentiment seems truly impossible to have unless one believes that either 1) The soldiers fighting today are somehow compelled or otherwise there against their better judgment, or 2) The soldiers fighting today fight willingly and chose to willingly, but only because they were somehow “duped” by their superiors.
One cannot believe that members of our armed forces fight in part because they were compelled or tricked, without taking something away from their choice to serve.
More to the point that is crucial for us to wrestle with now, before the troops come home: if either of the above is a belief about reasons for serving and those who serve that lurks quietly in your heart, I beg that you confront it before the end of this war. Was it Jeff that mentioned the term cognitive dissonance? Can anyone imagine the cognitive dissonance that will occur if 130,000+ soldiers return home to a population that offers, “Thank you for your service. Personally, though, I wish no one had had to do what you did, and I believe you and others like you were the victims of trickery”? I am glad that Americans at large recognize the need to not repeat the end of Vietnam, but in my mind we are a lot closer to that danger than we realize when we “support” the troops but have as much understanding for the decision to serve as is given in
If you want your kids to do good NOW, have them join the Peace Corp or something. I don’t understand why any rational parent with kids who have great alternative options (as almost any Williams grad does) would encourage their kid to join the military so long as this administration is in place. Hence, unsurprising that hardly anyone does.
Jeff’s language above is likely careless, in that it states “I don’t understand . . . hence, unsurprising that hardly anyone does.” I don’t think he meant to say that, but it is a slip that is telling about the “me, therefore everyone” way we all think, a way that will be dangerous to our society in the very near future. We think that, because you and I see nothing to die for in a given context, no other rational being possibly could.
If you, for some reason, have an interest in how I think, read below the break. It is extremely long.
Look, I’m sure everyone with a comment in the cited post could somehow explain how their sentiment is more nuanced then this, explain how my criticism doesn’t apply. But can we admit that there are probably more reasons than just “Williams students have more opportunities” and “Williams students are savvy about politicians” that explain why we don’t serve? When America still had yet to hear the “truth” about the impetus for war, when we approached war in 2003, it is not as though we had markedly more Williams students enlisting then, nor did we have markedly more enlisting for the war in Afghanistan.
I believe above all in there being many factors behind every human decision, and I am sure that economics and suspicion about the government’s motives are a major factor in Williams grads not being in the armed services. But I want to expose the doublethink that one has to have when one says he “supports the troops” but also believes that it is suspicion of the government, wise recognition of the bigger picture of the war, that keeps Williams students out of the army. It is equivalent to saying that those who do enlist are incapable of, or less likely to be, as rationally critical. Jeff wrote, “Dying for a cause that is ultimately unjust does not make the soldier who risks his life any less patriotic, any less brave, any less noble.” He is right, but he and others leave out “intelligent” and “reasonable” from the list, and I worry about that, especially for us of a segment of society that just might value intelligence above nobility and honor. Not explicitly, but in a whole hell of a lot of what we do and cultivate our children to do.
I know the common answer to this is to point to the huge number of extremely impoverished people who serve, who in fact indisputably form the backbone of the army in the form of enlisted men (the term that connotes a soldier who is not an officer). Some seem to say that economics force them to join and opportunity allows others not to, and that if only they did not need the money many of these people would be capable of following the same line of rational thought that keeps Williams grads out. Well, no one will argue that a huge motivator for joining the army is steady pay and large advances, that the army recruits knowing this, and recruits more successfully in poor areas especially in the South. (This is, by the way, as it has been for a long, long time, far earlier than Sept 11th or Bush’s office. If you have a model for how America can raise an army of the size it needs to protect itself and the world—or do you think we need to massively shrink our army?—without ending up with a bulk force of lower-class enlistees, please share). Yes, it is a damn ugly thing to see a recruiter browbeat 18 year olds to fill the ranks, and the demographics of the army at large are undeniable. But does this explain why liberal arts college grads do or don’t join?
I honestly believe that our choice, the choice of a small subset of the American population and why our choice differs hugely from other segments, is due to how we are cultured, and far less to the opportunities we have. How many of us even got as far as rejecting service for the reasons Jeff and others outline? I sure never got as far as even thinking about it for myself. If many are like me, I think it’s quite reasonable of David Kane to do what he does: try to present joining the armed services as a legitimate option for Williams grads (though, as usual, he could do it with a whole lot less in-your-faceness if he really wanted success as opposed to controversy).
Yes, it is noble to serve in the Peace Corps, and pursue other lines of work when you do so because you think it is your calling to improve the world. This is beyond argument here, and it does not impact our need to understand why we pursue some callings less per capita than do other segments of our society. I don’t believe that economic reasons or (as I’ve tried to demonstrate that some quietly believe) the [superior abilities of liberal arts students and parents to sense the lies of politicians] explain why our graduates rarely serve.
FroshMom, I can see why you objected when David restricted his question to “the Williams context,” and we don’t need to do that. But I think it is reasonable to assume that the great bulk of Ephblog has far more knowledge of men and women with college degrees—those who become officers in the army, not enlisted men—so if we are going to discuss motives, it seems reasonable to restrict our question to officers. Now we are talking just about college graduates, whom I think it is fair to say, whatever society they hail from, have as a class far greater choices for economic success than their non-degreed peers. So why is there still a huge per capita difference between the number of officers coming from the Northeast and the number from the South, etc.? This, I think, sweeps aside other explanations for why Americans volunteer to serve, and leaves behind the simple fact that the culture of the Northeast and the colleges we discuss here on Ephblog is—relative to most other population segments—anti-military and anti-war (read how, in Jeff’s last comment, he makes synonymous, without qualification, “encouraging Ephs to enlist” and “jingoistic militarism”). We were raised to doubt that force is ever a necessary means to a good end. We were raised to see the military as something that is not a truly considerable choice for us in life, and only a small few of us come to see otherwise.
As you may have guessed by now, I know someone in the military: my younger brother is a lieutenant. He commissioned only a year ago and has not yet been to Iraq, but my family’s coming to understand his decision to serve and very personal understanding of what kind of man (boy) chooses to serve today began six years ago, when he made his decision and somehow stayed the course through huge, indescribable fights with everyone else in the family. I guess I am guilty of the enormous fallacy of extrapolating a lot from one data point, but I know for a fact that a lot of those I talk to (more often: hear talking at me) about this topic are extrapolating from even fewer, and Danny has constantly striven to get the opinions of as many soldiers as he can talk to. Through him I have had access to his officer peers from U Delaware and elsewhere, people who are making the decision we discuss here, and did so within the current reality of “pointless war.”
Finally, Jeff writes:
There is a reason that despite a terrible economy and the largest group of 18 year olds in our nation’s history, the military is struggling with recruiting — because countless kids and their parents have made the exact same calculous that I am advocating. That makes them no less brave or patriotic than the millions who signed up for WW II: it just means that, for them, one cause was far more worthy.
I don’t agree. The calculus not to join the army now is far simpler: you have the highest realized chance of dying in the course of your work than an enlistee has ever had in recent years. What other job comes with that disincentive? Yet let’s not even take a step down the road to comparing ourselves to the society that prosecuted World War II. Our far more proper point of comparison is the generation that fought in Vietnam, and failed to welcome and reintegrate the soldiers when they came home. When that day comes, that crucial task will be ours in the home front, and less the soldiers’. I hope by then that we have resolved in ourselves what I see as quiet hypocrisies about “supporting the troops” but not supporting the cause or manner of fighting for it that they choose to adopt.
June 9th, 2008 at 2:59 am
Sorry if this is addressed in your post or any of the previous writings on this topıc (I didn’t have time to read everything) but isn’t it possible that one joıns the service out of a sense of obligation to one’s country? One could disagree with the war and with the administration and still join without being ‘duped.’
Personally I do think that the current war was a huge mistake on the part of our government in just about every way, but since I think service is ultimately about service (rather than supporting a just cause or whatnot) I absolutely do support our troops while condemning the war. And I see nothing wrong or disingenous about that.
Now, regarding the decision to serve…well there are tons of ways to serve one’s country other than enlisting, and I think that most ephs planning on several years or a lifetime of self-sacrificing service consider their options seriously. With regards to the question of why more ephs don’t enlist, well, I think the answer is simple. For the average eph, the marginal cost of enlisting tends to be far greater than other forms of service (like, say, Americorp or Teach For America) while the marginal benefit seems–to most ephs–to be less. Yes, we absolutely do need soldiers with a Williams education…but to most ephs, it would seem that they could do more good as a teacher in a low income classroom or as a community organizer than as a soldier.
June 9th, 2008 at 7:38 am
Well, I disagree with your fundamental premise: I don’t think we dishonor the troops by thanking them for their service, honoring their service, saying their service is heroic, but also by realistically assessing the war as a disastrous mistake which failed to accomplish it’s stated goals. Basically, Jonathan, under your approach, it is wrong to ever suggest that service in the military is a mistake. That simply can not be. Again, I am not saying this war is akin to Nazi Germany or anything close to it, but that is a perfect example: I think it is fair to say that it was a mistake for enlisted Nazi soldiers to have signed up and fought for that cause. Some causes are not worth fighting for, let alone worth dying for. I still believe it is far more of a dishonor to military men and women to enter a war carelessly and precipitously and without proper planning (all of which are basically indisputable at this point) than it is to question whether that war was worth fighting in the first place. There are substantial organizations of veterans against the war. Are you saying they are nto supporting the troops? Or because they fought and I didn’t, I dishonor the troops by my comments, but they are permitted to make them?
I also think the reasons for signing up for the military (or by not signing up, in the case of most Williams students) are far more complex than a simple “cultural” difference, although clearly that has something to do with it.
A huge, huge part, probably the biggest factor, is financial. People will gravitate on the average towards higher paying jobs, and Williams grads tend to have opportunties to make a lot more money. Even for the kids I knew in high school who went to academies, who had similar grades and test scores as Williams kids, the motive was in large part financial — they weren’t gung ho about giong to war (again, at least the small sample I knew) but figured hey I can get paid to get a top notch education — how can I pass that up? they weren’t “culturally different” from me although probably slightly less averse to war on the average, I’m sure.
there are other factors as well — the military spends a HUGE fortune on propoganda ads each year in efforts to recruit — you really think these ads are representative of the actual military experience? hell, if pharma companies can no longer issue deceptive ads touting benefits of drugs, why should the air force and marines make it seem like military service is all about standing in formation in gorgeous uniforms on mountaintops? I feel like the military marketing machine is fundamentally dishonest, and if we were so confident that there were plenty of people willing to make an informed choice to serve in the military and more pointedly this war, why would we need aggressive recruiting tactics on a local level and propagandistic ads on a national level?
I am sick and tired of the fundamental premise of the last eight years, which the media and much of the country bought into — those against the war and who want to bring the troops home do not support them, and are not patriotic. Nothing you say has convinced me that we are better served by supporting an unjust war to make our troops feel better about their service. Because if we do so, all that will do is make it that much easier to risk more lives unecessary the next time we as a nation are faced with a decision to go to war. I still believe we can lionize and praise the individual heroes of our military without supporting the broader policy, and I think to do otherwise is actually patronizing and will not serve their or our national interest in the long run.
IN all events, I think actions speak louder than words. I think the best way to show our appreciation for our troops is to provide them with educational benefits, and top of the line medical and mental health care. There are anything but priorities with the current administration. Words ring hollow when actions show disregard for the quality of life of our military men and women.
June 9th, 2008 at 7:42 am
By the way, Jonathan, do you think it was wrong for your family to fight with his brother on his decision to go to war? Do you think they were unpatriotic because they discouraged him from doing so? It is great that he had the courage to stay the course and choose to make such an enormous sacrifice, but I think there is nothing wrong with his family from discouraging him from doing so, and I know my parents would do exactly the same thing, and I would not think them any less patriotic, or any less supportive of those who choose to serve, for doing so.
June 9th, 2008 at 7:50 am
One more point — I did write my comments very quickly (as reflected in the numerous typos and such) so certain language I used was inartful. The jingoist militarism in particular, I would like to retract as Jon points out it reads as if that is synonomous with encouragement to enlist which is most certainly not the case. I still believe there is some degree of cognitive dissonance with a family initially unhappy with a decision to enlist who later grows to applaud the war effort, but I oversimplified and overgeneralized with that comment as well. Jon raises some good points and I will admit that other than a very extreme case, I can’t imagine my parents ever encouraging me to join the military due to a wide variety of factors (nor, to be honest, would I have ever considered it except for an extreme case such as a WWII type situation) — but I am also quite certain they would be even more vociferous in their opposition given that we are governed by an administration that, they and I believe, is far too willing to go to war, over far too litte. I would certainly be MORE willing (though still ultimately unwilling except in an extreme case) to join the military in an Obama administration, which I believe would be far less likely to wage an unecessary war.
June 9th, 2008 at 7:59 am
Sorry, one last point before I jet to work: you’ve used one of David’s favorite rhetorical techniques in your opening paragraph, presenting a false choice. I think one can take a far more nuanced approach than suggesting the troops were duped or were compelled to fight this war against their better judgment. First and most importantly, for the vast majority of the troops who have fought in this war, they didn’t enlist to fight in this particular war, they enlisted to fight for their country, and they placed faith in the politicians to get it right as to how best to exercise that enormous responsibility. once that initial decision is made, everything else is out of their hands, and all they have left to do is heroically follow their orders, wherever it may take them. Also, at some point, the vast majority of this country, including the media, supported these war efforts, it is only upon reflection that we have collectively realized and learned of the mistakes that were made. So even for those who signed up with the purpose of fighting in this particular conflict, that decision can be called heroic without the limitations you artifically impose. Even for the small percent who signed up knowing they would fight in this war even after all the faulty intelligence, etc., came to full light, there is still heroism in fighting for something you believe in, still heroism in risking your life for a principle, even if I and (now, most others) believe that it is, in the abstract, a principle or a policy or a program that does not warrant the expenditure of so many American lives and so many American resources to pursue. I really think you set up a false dichotomy at the outset, which undermines much of your argument.
June 9th, 2008 at 8:14 am
I live amid many older military people, former officers who are now retirees and some of whom are consultants to the military or are otherwise somehow still involved. We talk about the current conflicts and related issues some, but not a lot. Maybe they are just being polite, but I haven’t gotten the impression that they find it hypocritical to distinguish between supporting a campaign and the way it is carried out (or, more important for this thread, not supporting it) and supporting the troops who are carrying it out. They themselves seem to find much that troubles them deeply about the current campaigns, and I would say that their concerns and fears arise out of their patriotism; they certainly don’t seem to feel that their own questioning calls their patriotism into question.
Where I live is unusual for an urban area in having a lot of former officers mixed in with other civilians. That may make a difference in the discussions and attitudes. Other than near bases, in the South and in some small towns elsewhere, I don’t think there’s a lot of mixing of military and civilians like this, particularly not concentrations of former officers the way we have here, near the Pentagon, DOD and State. That probably makes a big difference in the discussion (and perhaps they speak differently to me, knowing that I am a Friend — but I don’t think that accounts for it), so my take may be anomalous, but not only do I not find the distinction hypocritical myself, I don’t hear the ex-military people I associate with considering it hypocritical.
But, yes, Jonathon, we as a country must rally to support the returning troops (and not just when they first return but in the years to come). The figures on emotional damage (PTSD) are appallingly high and even those who come home relatively unscathed have difficult adjustments and paths ahead of them, particularly those in the non-officer ranks. For the physically or emotionally injured, the struggles are, frankly, beyond my ken (but talking to the men at the food kitchen over the years has constantly reminded me that, tragically, many of today’s young veterans’ predecessors from former conflicts never really got back on their feet). Each of us should be active in supporting legislation and campaigns to improve educational benefits for returnees, improve and make relevant for this war’s veterans our VA hospitals and health care, and other efforts to improve the lives and chances of those who are returning from service. Individually and through our clubs, places of worship, and schools, we can actively support returning veterans and their families, and the families of those who are not returning. We would do well to join together in these sorts of efforts, rather than fight among ourselves over what it means to love our country. A just war, a web of lies, a necessary campaign poorly executed and with horrific costs in terms of people and resources and our national image — whatever it is, we need to reach out to the returning veterans and let nothing about the conflicts and the execution of the campaigns distract us from our obligation to them.
June 9th, 2008 at 8:26 am
I’ll disagree with you on another tack — I don’t think it’s noble to join the Peace Corps. In fact, it’s short-sighted and self-indulgent.
It would be much better that such moon-eyed idealists worked instead for the same length of time on Wall Street (if they could cut it, admittedly doubtful for the majority) or the highest-paying, longest-hours job they could find. Even crab fishing in Alaska would be better.
Said idealist should then donate every penny to an aid organization or to microfinance, like the Grameen Bank. Much more effective than actually going there and doing it oneself, but you don’t get the same feeling (hence the self-indulgence).
June 9th, 2008 at 8:37 am
Jeff and I were typing away at the same time and I hadn’t read his posts when I posted my comments (#6). Reading mine after his, it looks as though I might be chiding him with my last sentence. That was not my intent (nor was I intending to chide Jonathan — sorry for spelling your name wrong in #6 — or anyone who was debating the war, patriotism or service on the other thread). Instead, I want to keep my own eyes on the “supporting the troops” part (and I hope others will join me). I am going to start for myself by looking into the legislation and other campaigns to improve things for veterans, and I’ll probably branch out from there.
DK and others who would know: it is probably a very good time to post again the list and addresses of Eps who are serving, so that we at EphBlog can reach out to them. And what about those in uniform who are not stationed in Afghanistan or the Middle East (even those who are stateside)? Can someone get us the contact information so that those who want to can reach out to them, too?
June 9th, 2008 at 10:16 am
Right, it’s certainly not in any manner self indulgent to go work on Wall Street making ungodly amounts of money, partying hard, living the good life, and making connections for your future career. It’s the Peace Corps that truly exhibits self indulgence. Wow, why didn’t Williams grads think of that before?
June 9th, 2008 at 10:24 am
Larry, I didn’t view it as chiding. In fact I agree 100 percent with everyone you said in your post.
June 9th, 2008 at 11:04 am
Jonathan,
I don’t really have much to say regarding your stance that “condemnation of the war” is “criticism of our volunteers”…that “anti-war” people are less patriotic, that supporting our troops means we shouldn’t voice opposition to the war, or vice-versa. I think your premise is weak, and Jeff, and Larry, and CE have adequately pointed out how that is the case. And the fact that you and your family discouraged your brother, even six years ago when this war was even less controversial than it is now, that there were “huge indescribable fights”…well…that blows more holes in your premise than just about anything else said here.
And as far as “raising an army”….without “brow-beating 18 year olds to fill the ranks”? IMO, it would be a lot easier with a war that wasn’t so opposed, so ill-begotten…so badly managed.
However, Jonathan, ‘reading between the lines’, what I see is the heartfelt commentary of a man who is worried about his brother…and doing eveything he can to provide support for him…now…and upon his return from service. And rightly so.
I think if anything, you should take heart, in some small way, in the opposition being shown. Much of it has been focused on the support and proper treatment of soldiers once they return…and indicates the depth of lessons learned from Vietnam… the desire to not repeat the mistakes of that war, and it’s aftermath.
Larry beautifully outlines the myriad of ways in which we can be vigilant in providing this support. And we should all be united in making sure it happens.
June 9th, 2008 at 11:21 am
DK and others who keep up with who is in uniform,
With respect to Post #8, I’d be very grateful to hear an update on Nate’s father and brother, and for them to be included in the Eph list if someone can assemble one.
June 9th, 2008 at 11:24 am
And we all wish the very best for your bother, Jonathan. I am grateful to him. Your support must mean so much to him.
June 9th, 2008 at 7:34 pm
[Jeff, to start off, I hope you will forgive me for replying to what is most compelling to me to do here. Contained in your four replies are a number of questions I won't address, but promise to if there is enough further dialog here or on a new post to justify the added length. For now, my already too-long comment must be devoted elsewhere, with my genuine apologies for your likely perception that I am dodging points you have made that smash my fallacious argument.]
It’s always a shame to see, over the course of commentary during the workday, your post serve as a springy jumping-off point for greater and greater feats of inference, until you get to the metropolis of straw men that is FM’s last comment.
I’m sorry Rory(?) and others seem to have gotten the idea I am “questioning anyone’s patriotism . . . either directly or in vague insinuations,” and that FroshMom somehow, god knows how, found in my words the statement ” ‘anti-war’ people are less patriotic.” Why is “anti-war” in quotes, by the way, FroshMom? What more proper term did I forget to use? In any case, it is truly not in my intent, concern, or mind when I was writing the post to question anyone’s patriotism. Period. Fight that shadow if you enjoy it, but find it in my text if you want me to respond.
I also don’t find unreasonable the actions of my family in trying to dissuade my brother from committing himself to risk himself away from home for 4+ years of his life. Whether the argument demonstrated a lack of patriotism or support for the troops would depend entirely on the content of the argument: it would be stupid of me to say a family was categorically wrong for balking, and stupid of you say that such balking is never due in small or large part to shame, misunderstanding, horror, and a world of emotions that often play out when a child announces his intended career. Believe it or not, I don’t think I need to (or did) judge or wade into the details of my or other families’ reckoning with military service to make the points I care about.
I think I was clear from the get-go: if you find it easy to support a person but not the goal that person works for, if you find it easy to draw a distinction of ideals between those who plan the war and those who willingly help us fight it, good for you. Personally, I find it impossible. It, to me, would be like telling, say, a chef, “Man, I love your work, but I wish the restaurant that hired you never existed in the first place.” This is not complicated when your friend the chef wants to quit. It’s likely to upset your friend when he loves his job and the place he works.
I don’t want our society to be the kind that speaks about standing behind all the soldiers, but in the end can only stand behind those that hated what they did in some part of their hearts, and holds at arm’s length those that served 100% willingly, for goals they feels they accomplished. This is the dichotomy that I am trying to bring to light. If you don’t feel it, maybe we don’t have a problem. But maybe you have also never stood before a clear-headed soldier who said to you, “Yup, I had a pretty good idea of what I was getting into. Yeah, I’m glad we are doing what we are doing; I’m glad we’re still in it and I think we are making progress.” What do you find yourself itching to say to that hypothetical soldier? Is your first inclination to augment or diminish your support for him?
At the absolute least, I think “I support the troops, I don’t support the war” is actually a very, very complicated feeling, one that I would need to overcome a lot of conflict to believe. It is true that just about everyone I talk to disagrees with me, and does not seem to feel the conflict. I guess I have failed to show you why I cannot feel the way you do.
Believe it or not, I care little for any argument about “patriotism” here. It’s not an argument I am interested in having and, as I said clearly, I never thought seriously myself about enlisting. In posting, I was and am interested in two things: 1) presenting my genuine fear of what OUR, the home front’s, failure at the end of this war may be, and 2) trying to add a large answer to the question posed in my title that previous commenters had not. No form of “patriot” appeared in my writing and I swear that was not some clever trick of wordsmithy on my part. It was baffling to see nearly one of you write it, many reacting as though I were baiting you.
June 9th, 2008 at 8:32 pm
JG, what part of “donate every penny” did you miss in my comment?
Nothing in there about partying hard or making connections, just making money and donating it all.
Congratulations, although. You sure took care of that juggernaut of a strawman.
June 9th, 2008 at 8:38 pm
Jonathan, this is clearly something that you have thought about and struggled with mightily. It is very personal for you. Your statement that
is extremely insightful and so very true. It is complicated. But it is not impossible or does not feel impossible to some of us who have also struggled with those thoughts. It seems to me that while you have trouble understanding how others so easily (or maybe not easily but ably) reconcile support for the individuals while abhoring the cause, others have trouble understanding how you cannot reconcile those things. By questioning the ability to reconcile those two feelings, many seem to have felt that you questioned their support of soldiers - you didn’t not bring up anything about their opposition to this war. You did not say patriotic or unpatriotic, but questioning one’s support for the troops is pretty much code for unpatriotic.
Reading your comment, I see that it was not your intent to call anyone out in that manner but rather to process your own and others’ thought processes. I appreciate your reasoned response, truly I do. I cannot imagine how difficult it would be to have a brother fighting in this war.
I want to point out though that you later say:
Again, I don’t know what your intent is in framing it this way, but this comment tells me that you presume those who disagree with you are simply ill-informed or somehow don’t have a personal connection to the issue. I have looked directly into the eyes of a soldier who freely chose to serve and believed in what he was doing. I still disagree with his choice, but I would do anything to support him as a person - including sending treats and supplies from home, encouraging emails, etc. which I have done. I feel quite comfortable that my friend knows my position on the war but is also fully aware of my love and support of him, aware that I trust and support the instincts that led him to make that decision even if I wouldn’t have made the same one. For me, again I speak for myself here, for me there is no cognitive dissonance, there is no conflict there.
I think I may have said this elsewhere on EB, but to me it is the essential difference between judging, which at some level we all do in evaluating the world around us, and being judgmental - that is, questioning the worth or value or intelligence or heart or patriotism of someone who disagrees with you.
June 9th, 2008 at 8:42 pm
@ Christopher Hitchens’ Conscience, need I really go back and retroactively add in the stage direction “tongue firmly implanted in cheek”?
June 9th, 2008 at 9:55 pm
Jonathan,
Everything I put in quotes was in your text. If I misunderstood it and misused it, please forgive me. I do use quotation marks too often…and didn’t realize it was a way of setting up straw men and creating feats of inference..(.whatever all of that may be). I perhaps need a primer on rhetoric…
Next time I will keep it simpler…and just say that I agreed with the sentiments expressed by a few others regarding patriotism, and support of the troops and opposition to the war.
The part of my comment I would rather you have heard (and the part that I should have started and ended with), was where I said that I understand the concern you have for your brother, and admire your efforts to support his decision. And that all of us should do everything possible to insure the troops get the support and recognition they deserve, now, and when they come home.
June 9th, 2008 at 10:35 pm
Yup…when I reread my comment…it sounds all wrong (except for the end).
And when I reread your comment, I understand more what you were getting at…although, dang, Jonathan…it was loooonng.
You raise some very valid points….that will make me more aware of how my sentiments regarding the war, can be misunderstood by those that are fighting.
Please accept my apology.
June 10th, 2008 at 9:44 am
JG summed it up–as almost always–better than I could. Questioning someone’s ability to support the troops while anti-war has been a coded attack on patriotism since the vietnam war (if not earlier). In your explanation, it seems clear you were not purposefully bringing up that demon–unfortunately, many others who have the same question for us anti-war, pro-troop are desperately trying to bring up that demon.
And the chef example is a good analogy–in that, I still have no problem thinking “man, great chef. Deserves to be in a good restaurant”.
Also, the idea of patriotism as an issue isn’t found in your post, and I apologize if it seems I was attacking you, but rather is found in Kane’s comment #17 in “Daily Sacrifice”. Unfortunately, because you and he stake out similar ideological beliefs, some guilt by association was inevitable, if unfortunate.
June 10th, 2008 at 9:58 am
I, too, was reading the two threads at the same time and didn’t separate them out the way I should have. And the “code” phrase got me — I now know you didn’t mean what we read into it.
The good thing about this thread is the way people have ended up listening to each other. The best thing about it is that we have understood one another.
June 10th, 2008 at 8:11 pm
Coming in late as a Southerner with 2 relatives who served, and a friend who went to Paris Island last spring, I don’t think I buy into Jonathan’s interpretation of the support the troops, not the war sentiment.
I don’t think soldiers perform missions against their better judgment (in the context of the entire conflict; any individual operation may have issues), nor do I think they are fooled.
I hold individual soldiers responsible for their actions in the context of their orders. At the present time, such orders may include maintaining the peace in Baghdad. I have to problem with that individual mission, because it has a proper context within the larger strategy, something that is much more problematic for me.
Privates aren’t generals; nor should they be. To blame a private for the failure of the overall strategy he/she was a part of doesn’t make sense to me. As someone who has never learned in detail about the Vietnam protest movement, I have no clue why people were angry at the soldiers, because the overall war strategy was not part of their responsibility.
The question on the decision to join up in the first place is different, and I can understand how someone’s decision in that area might be affected by current Defense policy. However, I can’t use current policy to justify telling someone else that they shouldn’t join up; the United States needs a defense force. A bad strategic decision is not a reason to dissolve the Armed Forces.