Tue 24 Jun 2008
The Disadvantages of an Elite Education?
Posted by Dan Seaton under Academia, General at 8:22 am
I’ve been a frequent reader of (and occasional commenter on) Ephblog for a while, so when I encountered a discussion of the disadvantages of an elite education on MetaFilter, I emailed David to say this might be interesting content for this site. And now I seem to have become an author.
Anyway, the MetaFilter thread is actually a discussion of an article about Yale by William Deresiewicz. Deresiewicz claims, among other things, that elite educational institutions — Yale, in particular — have created alumni who are not always able to connect with others across social and class boundaries:
It didn’t dawn on me that there might be a few holes in my education until I was about 35. I’d just bought a house, the pipes needed fixing, and the plumber was standing in my kitchen. There he was, a short, beefy guy with a goatee and a Red Sox cap and a thick Boston accent, and I suddenly learned that I didn’t have the slightest idea what to say to someone like him. So alien was his experience to me, so unguessable his values, so mysterious his very language, that I couldn’t succeed in engaging him in a few minutes of small talk before he got down to work. Fourteen years of higher education and a handful of Ivy League dees, and there I was, stiff and stupid, struck dumb by my own dumbness. “Ivy retardation,” a friend of mine calls this. I could carry on conversations with people from other countries, in other languages, but I couldn’t talk to the man who was standing in my own house.
More generally, he argues that some of the institutions of elite education encourage what he calls “entitled mediocrity” and that such an education often does not encourage students to view their experience as part of an intellectual journey and that alumni, for all their education, are afraid to take meaningful risks.
In general, he argues that some of the institutions of elite education encourage what he calls “entitled mediocrity” and that such an education often does not encourage students to view their experience as part of an intellectual journey and that alumni, for all their training, are afraid to take meaningful risks.
What struck me as interesting was that, while Yale and Williams are similar in many ways — and, in fact, Williams is considerably more isolated than Yale — I haven’t encountered the same sense of entitlement and isolation among my Williams classmates as Deresiewicz discusses in the article. I suppose some of my classmates might be uncomfortable talking to their plumber, but I personally don’t know anyone who would be. And, as a group, I think my Williams classmates have taken many risks — intellectually, career-wise, etc. — of exactly the kind that Deresiewicz appears to be arguing that Yalies do not.
Perhaps there is some confirmation bias at work here: is Deresiewicz himself elitist and out of touch, and thus seeing in the current generation of Yalies a similar sense of entitlement? Maybe I’m making a generalization about Williams students and alumni as well. But I’m nonetheless interested in why (and perhaps whether) this sense of entitlement does not appear to be similarly widespread at Williams.
So the question I would put to you, Ephblog readers, is whether it is in fact true that a Williams education somehow better prepares students for life in the larger world, and, if so, what makes Williams so much different than Yale?
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30 Responses to “The Disadvantages of an Elite Education?”
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Loweeel says:
To be fair, the ear-torturing abuse of the English language from those fackin Sawx fans is unintelligible to most people who haven’t spent time in the Boston area. It doesn’t matter whether it’s Hahvid, MIT, or Bunkah Hill CC — it’s region, not “class”.
I just love the irony that Deresiewicz has no idea how to engage the guy wearing a SAWX hat in small talk. The opening was QUITE LITERALLY staring him in the face. So much for Yale’s admission standards. And as for small talk, “Who sucks haadah, Jeetah oah Arawd?” is usually a good starting point.
It’s always amusing when an author’s own idiocy undercuts his argument.
June 24th, 2008 at 10:16 amRechtal Turgidley, Jr says:
Having just had an interesting plumbing problem and after writing the plumber a check, I found little sense of class or financial difference between us other than that he had ‘real skills’ and I do not try to fix anything that cannot be approached with a Swiss Army knife.
June 24th, 2008 at 11:25 amFROSH/SOPH MOM says:
Anyone who is unable to have a conversation with their plumber is hampered by more than any possible “hole in their education” from an elite school.
Again, (per my comment to ‘10 on the “Athletics Admissions thread), I believe that intellectual development is enriched by engaging with all kinds of people, and the ability to do that, begins with the willingness of the individual.
The problem lies with Deresiewicz, and others like him. I suppose you could make the argument that people who are pre-disposed to a ’sense of entitlement’, are more attracted to elite, status symbol schools. But I don’t buy the premise, that those schools are responsible for this…ahem…’disability’.
June 24th, 2008 at 1:28 pmVemando says:
Dude’s problems began long before Yale.
Why are those four yeas – which, considering you are trying to learn as much of something pretty complex as you can as quickly as you can, is almost bound to be a somewhat elite experience – supposed to address every problem people have? So the dude utterly lacks social grace – as Loweeel says, you really can’t figure out what to talk about with a guy wearing a hat of a specific sports team? – how is that an indictment of his university?
June 24th, 2008 at 2:08 pm'10 says:
It’s conceivable that the guy doesn’t follow baseball or know enough about the Red Sox to be able to say much on the topic. I don’t think I could name a single Red Sox player, and I certainly wouldn’t know anything about their current schedule (is baseball season even going on right now? I honestly have no idea). I don’t think that means my Williams education has failed me, just that I grew up in a family that didn’t care much about baseball. So I can’t really blame Deresiewicz for not going down the Red Sox route, although it would have been nice if he could have found some other topic of mutual interest.
June 24th, 2008 at 3:00 pmDavid Kane says:
Swarthmore professor Tim Burke has interesting comments on the same article.
And welcome to Dan Seaton and Marcos Sahm, our newest EphBlog authors!
June 24th, 2008 at 3:02 pmAnon says:
The plumber section is a particularly weak part of the article, but the rest strikes me as on the mark. We shouldn’t pretend that Williams graduates are entirely immune from the tendencies discussed in the article, particularly fear of failure and/or low status among one’s peers. But I noticed acutely upon entering Yale Law School the difference between the LACs and the HYPS. There was much less true, aimless, casual intellectual engagement at YLS than I would have expected given the caliber of the students (literally half of whom went to HYP) and the purported scholarly orientation of the school. Williams was much richer in that regard (at least for me in the English department). Why the difference exists so noticeably, I’ll leave to other commentators. I’ve always located the difference in the lack of constant public validation Williams graduates get in the wider world. Precisely because only elites have heard of Williams (and even then don’t usually have particularly strong feelings about it) Williams graduates are more free to navigate their lives on their own terms. That lack of validation also means that the people who decide to attend are necessarily looking for something more in an education than the status associated with having attended an Ivy League college. I think in our carrerist world that’s an increasingly rare species. And our success in USNEWS may yet diminish the difference between us and the Ivys. Be careful what you wish for, I suppose.
June 24th, 2008 at 6:14 pmanon2 says:
Woah! Do you have any tips about how to get into YLS?
June 24th, 2008 at 8:43 pmanonymous says:
I feel a great deal of profound angst over your pallor and your physical resemblance towards retardation.
You clearly did not deserve a Williams Education.
Your retardation is a pre-condition of your existence. You are infirm.
The mediocrity that surrounds our country is profound and pervasive.
If we do not turn it around, the aliens that are in control, will prevail in a manner that will unwind the history of this nation.
You cannot entertain these swindlers for they will steal your seats, your entries, your schools.
They are diametrically opposed to your success.
They want and intend to diminish your interest in your schools.
Stand firm and with resolve.
You are within your rights.
June 25th, 2008 at 2:43 amRory says:
the author’s self-selection is absurd–by the age of 35 he had spent 12 years in elite academia. That’s a rare experience.
Further, instead of considering Kerry and Bush, consider Obama. oops! There goes his selling point.
Next, it seems like his beef is with the insulated elite who grew up in the prep school environment. While that may be valid, it’s still unfair to blame colleges for the flaw that originated much earlier and is contained within a subpopulation of the school.
I haven’t read the entire article, but from the first 1/3 it seems like he makes a classic grave error–assuming that one subsection of the yale population speaks for what is the problem with elite higher education. Please. Get out of your small bubble. Within the classes I’ve TA’ed at Penn, I’ve certainly seem my share of anti-intellectual prep school grads with a sense of entitlement (you can often spot them by the jewelry if female or sandals and polo shirts if male). However, I’ve also met FAR MORE students who are intellectually engaged and lack that sense of entitlement. Many of whom came from that prep school environment.
After my first semester TAing, I got one comment that was searing and will inform me throughout my teaching.Someone wrote that they enjoyed the class but they were disappointed because it seemed like I assumed the class didn’t want to learn the ideas behind the stats I was teaching. Don’t knock down elite students without engaging them. they’ll surprise.
June 26th, 2008 at 10:17 amPre-Frosh Mom says:
Most of the article attempts to reflect on a class system that perpetuates itself through elite universities, such as Yale. Deresiewicz avoids looking at the social milieu that preceded entrance into an elite university. Buried in the article he briefly speculates that students at liberal arts colleges might avoid the disadvantages of an elite education, assuming that these students will search for answers to “big questions” that might be evidence of an intellectual journey. He ends by presenting introspection as an antidote. Which is a Williams education– elite, per Deresiewicz’s views, or a place that nurtures a questioning mind.
June 26th, 2008 at 11:37 amfrank uible says:
For God’s sake quit it – this thread reeks of intellectual and social snobbery.
June 26th, 2008 at 1:20 pmPTC says:
Put your children to work early and often. A life full of meaningfull summer jobs, and this guy would have never had this problem.
June 26th, 2008 at 2:22 pmPre-Frosh Mom says:
Intellectual & social snobbery- in the context of this blog, does that pre-date, come from a Williams education, or develop later? I hope alumni are grounded enough to avoid both.
June 26th, 2008 at 3:35 pmLarry George says:
PTC: I agree completely. Helps, too, to be expected to contribute to one’s own college bill and to work for all of one’s pocket money. When a person comes to see every expenditure in terms of “I can make $6/hour [or whatever] after taxes,” “needs” and a sense of entitlement suddenly scale way back and perceived social barriers tend to drop away quickly (although there can still be the residual perception that the student/worker doesn’t have to be there, is taking a permanent worker’s/older person’s job, or is “slumming,” etc., and that often takes a long time to get beyond, on both sides). Real community service (not the feel good stuff and not the resume-packing kind, but, usually, working side-by-side with the intended beneficiaries or committed activists) can have the same beneficial impacts.
June 26th, 2008 at 7:01 pmPTC says:
Larry- I am talking about bartending, moving furniture, construction work, mechanic, painting. Those kinds of jobs give young people the value of a dollar, and the ability to communicate. If the author had worked as a plumber, or even as a laborer for a plumber, he may not have even needed to call the guy in the Red Sox Cap, let alone had a hard time talking with him. Everyone should work for a living, at some point in their lives.
June 26th, 2008 at 10:28 pmLarry George says:
We’re talking about the same thing, but I was also thinking about some of the most common jobs around here: flipping burgers, lifeguarding, stocking inventory, mowing lawns, and scooping ice cream. (We have adults — mainly recent immigrants, except in bartending — doing most of the jobs you mentioned.)
June 26th, 2008 at 11:08 pmfrank uible says:
In order to move socially with ease among Everymen one needs to learn to fluently discuss broads, beer and ‘ball – familiarity with mass market TV and movies also is useful. Touching on scholarly subjects or non-scholarly subjects in a scholarly manner is certainly no help and can be a hindrance.
June 26th, 2008 at 11:59 pmFROSH/SOPH MOM says:
Ah yes, Frank…the three B’s…
How does that work with the …em…”everywomen” in your life? Do one or more of the B’s change?
Oh, and BTW, did Ken tell you?
‘I’ am providing lunch tomorrow. Everyone’s invited. Really, it’s on ‘me’. And no ‘cold feet’ allowed.
It will be Southern style, with a hint of Tex-Mex, and California cuisine…for good measure.
Could you please provide the whine?
June 27th, 2008 at 12:16 amLarry George says:
Given the 3 Bs remark, maybe he could be asked to bring the cheese instead (unless we’re going to talk about the demise of fraternities,,,).
June 27th, 2008 at 12:59 amkthomas says:
¿y Queso?
June 27th, 2008 at 1:01 amfrank uible says:
Since I’ve never been able to begin to solve the wonderful mystery of woman, whether Everywoman or no, I don’t have the foggiest about what or how to effectively discuss with her.
June 27th, 2008 at 1:13 amFROSH/SOPH MOM says:
Well, by declaring ‘everywoman’ a wonderful mystery, you are certainly off on the…em…right ‘foot’.
Per lunch, Ken and Larry think you should bring the cheese. I can manage the whine…noooo problem.
Ken, Larry, can you guys bring the finger food?
June 27th, 2008 at 1:33 amFROSH/SOPH MOM says:
Oh, and we should be sure and ‘don-nar’ party clothes… and remember, it can get cold this time of year.
June 27th, 2008 at 1:41 am:-)
frank uible says:
MOM: Le Grand Fromage accepts your kind invitation and will bring his grade A rump roast.
June 27th, 2008 at 6:11 amLarry George says:
i can probably manage one of my specialty foot in mouth dishes as well.
June 27th, 2008 at 7:05 amDavid Broadband says:
Tradesmen are in general an interesting lot. With a given expertise, they tend to our needs. They give us peace of mind and keep our infrastructure working.
Elite schools draw students form across social and class boundaries. Yes, there are elite schools whose students are unable to have social intercourse with tradesmen, but this is not a disability, but a cultural and social divide. There is nothing wrong with this.
I respect responsible and professional tradesmen, whether they speak the Queen’s English or not.
It is not imperative that I understand the Cockney or that I understand the gesticulations of those from the Bronx. It is not incumbent upon one to do so. We trade currency for work.
This is not a disadvantage of an Elite Education.
July 4th, 2008 at 1:28 amkthomas says:
Ahem. Mr. Band, we should work on our puns.
July 4th, 2008 at 2:16 amjerng says:
You have to understand, as some of your colleageus have pointed out, that first of all, the problem is systemic. It stems from the very notion of the liberal arts – a special set of skill for men, freed, not slaves. Second, the depth of the problem is really matter of relativistic points of view. What some consider bravery is trivial to others. What some consider meekness is fury. It depends on the frame of perspective, i.e. norms which you are comparing the target object with.
July 18th, 2008 at 12:55 am