Tue 15 Jul 2008
Professor Alan Hirsch is not impressed with the Department of Homeland Security.
From the AP: “The Justice Department’s former top criminal prosecutor says the government’s terror watch list likely has caused thousands of innocent Americans to be questioned, searched or otherwise hassled.” He should have added what no reasonable person can doubt: false confessions have resulted.
Probably true, but relatively low on my list of worries.
July 15th, 2008 at 4:58 pm
What exactly is higher on your list of worries? Because a lot of the things you seem to complain about seem pretty trivial compared to false confessions, which (a) result in innocent people going to jail or even being sentenced to death and (b) guilty parties escaping justice. There is little doubt that the practices adopted by Homeland Security make us LESS safe via obtaining faulty intelligence through false confessions. I know civil rights are not high on your list of concerns (especially the civil rights of SUSPECTED terrorists), so if it was just a matter of innocent people being confined and tortured you probably wouldn’t sweat that, but false confessions also pose a huge threat to national security, something I know you ARE concerned about.
July 15th, 2008 at 5:13 pm
During WWII when we were a lot less touchy about such things as torture and false confessions and when we were much more motivated to win the war at hand than we are today, there were undoubtedly many, many more (relatively and absolutely) false confessions. Consequently it is suggested that as a remedy for this inequity we take all action to repeal the outcome of WWII! As a first small step Professor Hirsch and I volunteer to have ourselves incarcerated in the resurrected version of Dachau since the prisoners who were released from that camp when it was overrun in 1945 by Allied forces are no longer available.
July 15th, 2008 at 5:17 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law
July 15th, 2008 at 5:18 pm
I think this system filters out links, but google “Godwin’s Law.” You may have set a record, Frank.
July 15th, 2008 at 5:39 pm
The WW2 analogy is perfect: we discovered that torture rarely produces useful intelligence. Unfortunately, the painful lessons of that experience have been completely forgotten or ignored in the present context. For background in the WW2 experience, see, e.g.,
http://www.iht.com/articles/2004/12/22/edstraus_ed3_.php. So much for respecting the bravery and resourcefulness of our veterans.
Real patriots use power intelligently, with a commitment to their nation’s moral standing in the world. If we squander the latter, we will have failed in our efforts to preserve the republic.
July 15th, 2008 at 5:49 pm
Beautifully put, Michael.
And I think I can answer my own question to David: things apparently higher on David’s “list of worries” than false confessions:
(1) Erin Burnett
(2) Mayo Shattuck’s love life
(3) Introducing regression analysis to all arenas of human endeavor, starting with every class at Williams (how I got through Art History 101 without mastering “R” is still a mystery)
(4) Displacing women Bicentennial winners with veterans
(5) Erin Burnett (she counts twice)
Am I forgetting anything?
July 15th, 2008 at 6:53 pm
Sounds as if we have some more voluntary or involuntary candidates to populate the New Dachau - of course based entirely on the Neonazi promise (cross their hearts) to refrain from their attempts at extracting confessions, false or otherwise.
July 15th, 2008 at 7:32 pm
But only because you are relatively low on the list.
July 16th, 2008 at 3:30 am
One would think that correctly calculating the costs of Type I errors, or understanding the consequences of the false positive paradox would be things of importance for someone who claims so much for The Regression Analysis. Although I am very concerned about Erin Burnett. Not really, but I felt the need to work her into the post somehow. I wonder where I picked up that bad habit.
July 16th, 2008 at 7:26 am
Jeff Z, “Am I forgetting anything?”……..Bethany McLean of course.
July 16th, 2008 at 9:29 am
jeffz–don’t forget senior thesis ideas about williams!
July 17th, 2008 at 1:41 am
Not to ask the dumb question, but I don’t follow how Terror Watch list names lead to false confessions.
False confessions are a real problem, but I don’t see how they are tied to keeping people out of the US.
Frank, I’m glad you chose to buck political correctness, but I seriously doubt if real torture was at all helpful in WW2. I don’t know the history well enough to speak on this in detail, but I can say with certainty that the Bill of Rights/Justice System is, in theory, designed to minimize false convictions, not to maximize honest ones.
Also, terrorism is not near the threat to the US that Hitler was. When we make that comparison, we do no favors for ourselves.
July 17th, 2008 at 7:36 am
Nor during WWII did we have the slightest compunction in believing that the U.S.’s forcing confessions through torture or the U.S.’s engagement, official or otherwise, in other patently nastier things (such as bombing for psychic effect large civilian populations as primary targets or incarcerating numerous U.S. citizens for long periods solely because of their ethnic background) should not be reduced or avoided if we were of the flimsiest opinion, despite clear failure to give opportunity for debate, that there was any possiblity (somehow, some way) those actions might help us win the war or might quicken its conclusion.