Sun 20 Jul 2008
College Confidential is filled with requests from applicants to “Chance me,” i.e., for knowledgeable readers to give their honest opinion of the applicants chances at a particular school. Here is one for Williams.
I’m a female in the Class of ‘09 at a small private school in CT.
-GPA (unweighted) 3.98
Our school doesn’t rank or give weighted GPAs[lots and lots of stuff]
Thanks to everyone who can give me feedback. I hope I have provided enough information or I haven’t provided extraneous information.
1) You need to provide your race for anyone to provide a reasonable estimate.
2) You don’t need to provide all sorts of meaningless (to an outsider) sports stuff like “Coaches’ Award, Varsity Tennis ‘07.” This has zero impact on your college admissions. What matters is: Are you good enough to play at Williams? If you are, you should contact the appropriate coach and report what she said. She might make you a tip. If so, you are in. She might offer to help in some way, but offer no guarantees. She might not return your e-mails.
3) Without more knowledge about the quality of your high school, it is hard to have an informed opinion. Grade point averages and ranks are meaningless without this background data. Top 10% of Exeter is better than top 1% of the bottom 1/3 of public high schools in the US. Best bet is to tell us which colleges admitted students with transcripts similar to yours (both in terms of courses taken and grades received) in the last few years.
4) Why would someone in Connecticut take the ACT but not the SAT?
July 20th, 2008 at 8:16 am
This bowing, scraping and picking for small, perceived advantages is all so inconvenient and demeaning - and at the end of it what does one have? Wouldn’t it be more psychicly relaxing, less physically laborious and probably more generally satisfactory to apply solely to East Djibouti State University, and leave it at that? I hear EDSU has lots of curvy and willing coeds, a vibrant social life, a warm climate, easy access to a “hot” big city and one helluva football team.
July 20th, 2008 at 11:26 am
Get some sleep David.
July 20th, 2008 at 11:48 am
More and more kids from the northeast are taking the ACT. Almost all the students in my son’s high school class took it. Many students take the ACT early in the winter of their junior year in high school, and then take the SAT in March. If you do well enough on the ACT, you might just skip the SAT and go on to take the SATII’s in May or June.
July 20th, 2008 at 11:49 am
Someone in CT would take the SAT, bomb it, and take the ACT instead. Some people (myself included) find the ACT more agreeable than the SAT.
July 20th, 2008 at 12:09 pm
You think she’d need to supply her race for an accurate assessment? Really? I’d think that it would be far more important for a chancer to see her essays, her recommendations and generally how she presented herself on her application.
And as to those awards, they aren’t meaningless. I will bet that having played on a team and having the qualities that led to being recognized by the coach for that participation will matter to Williams (although being four-year varsity potential obviously would mean more), and I believe that they actually say a good bit about an applicant, even if he or she doesn’t plan to, or won’t have the abilities necessary to, play varsity at Williams. Didn’t you play high school sports, dk, and don’t you believe it said something about you that was of interest to Williams?
Do you know a lot of current students? Have you seen their applications (or significant components thereof)? Your answers don’t mesh with who these people and their presented characteristics are.
As to the ACT, some students do much better on the ACT than on the SAT. Williams says it takes either, and it means it (and does so without prejudice). Last year, a student from Maryland was admitted with a 35 or 35 on the ACT and abysmally low SAT Is (which Williams undoubtedly saw, or could have pulled up, as all the SAT scores are shown* on the SAT II reports and the SAT IIs are, of course, required).
* I understand that the College Board will be moving back to a “score choice” regime, this time for SAT I, which will probably eliminate this problem.
July 20th, 2008 at 12:17 pm
The point of “from Maryland” above is that the SAT I has traditionally been much more popular than the ACT in Maryland (as it is in Connecticut), while the ACT has more of a presence outside of the Eastern Seaboard. Many students across the country are advised (by counselors, on prominent websites, and even by some colleges) to try the ACT if they aren’t having a lot of luck with the SAT I.
And I meant “34 or 35″ rather than “35 or 35.”
July 20th, 2008 at 12:38 pm
Larry George has provided so many useful posts since joining EphBlog as an author that the least I can do his to answer his questions.
Hah! A African American student with her credentials is virtually guaranteed admission at HYPS, much less at Williams. The same is probably true if she is Hispanic. The admissions advantage for URMs is substantial. Essays and recommendations matter much less.
What if every singe member of her high school class has a similar award? This is the way that almost every “small private school in CT” works. Every student has to play sports. And given few students and lots of sports/awards, almost everyone wins something. Williams Admissions knows this, of course, which is why it has no impact.
Yes. Since you asked, I was a captain and MVP of my high school soccer and golf teams. Alas, it was a small school and I was nowhere near good enough to play either at Williams.
No. How many times do we have to go through this? If you are a tip or protect (100 or so students a year), then your athletic ability is a key reason why Williams accepts you. If you are not, then Williams does not really care if you are captain of your high school soccer team, much less if you win some (consolation?) prize like the “Coach’s Award.” There is nothing wrong with playing sports and, certainly, Williams likes to see you doing something outside of school. But as long as you spend an equivalent amount of time doing something (whether it be music, arts, volunteering, anything), playing sports has almost zero impact on your admissions.
You can argue that it should, that Williams should care about such things. But, in fact, it doesn’t.
As a refresher, recall the insider’s guide to Williams Admissions (pdf). Summary: If you are not an AR 1 or 2, then athletics don’t matter unless you are good enough to play for Williams.
More soon.
July 20th, 2008 at 1:25 pm
Sorry, my post was deleted.
In summary: you’re not altogether correct about athletic admissions, David. For those students who aren’t lucky enough to be tipped, their admission will be about how compelling an identity they create or how compelling of a story they tell to Admissions. Something like “coaches award” shows that the student not only played the sport, but was fairly seriously committed to it. That in itself isn’t going to impress Williams much, but it will contribute significantly to the applicant’s story. Without seeing the rest of the applicant’s file, we can’t really say how it contributes…but without a doubt, it does contribute, and thus should remain on the application.
July 20th, 2008 at 1:35 pm
Receipt of a coaches’ award also may mean that the recipient is a good brown noser - and Williams like authority most everywhere certainly does like brown nosers.
July 20th, 2008 at 1:42 pm
1) The issue is not: What belongs in a Williams application? The issue is: What material is helpful to CC readers in order for them to provide useful estimates. Of course, this applicant should include her award on her Williams application. It just won’t matter much.
2) There is a very, very minor chance that some random award will make the difference for an AR 1 or 2 getting into Williams. But, 95 (99?) times out of 100, it won’t. Again, there is nothing wrong with including it and the committee does have to choose among lots of highly qualified AR 2s. I just think that too many people are confused about just how much “athletics matter” for admissions to Williams. For tips/protects, they matter a great deal. For almost everyone else, not so much.
3) Getting back to Larry’s questions:
Not really. Again, I loved playing soccer in high school. I loved playing IM at Williams. I played this morning in my local pick-up game. But love of soccer is, I think, no more relevant to Williams admissions then love of chess or love of bird-watching or love of insert-your-favorite-activity-here. I understand the claim that Williams should want kids that do something else in a serious time-consuming fashion outside of academics. Fine. I just don’t understand why sports should be privileged over other activities.
Relative to whom? I have had 7 Williams students work for me in the last three years as interns. I had e-mail exchanges with several dozen over the last five years. I have talked on campus (mainly at OCS) to a score more.
No. But I may fairly claim to be an expert on elite college admissions. At the very least, I have read a score or more of books and articles on the topic.
I am not sure that I understand this comment. I am accurately describing what matters in admissions to Williams and places like it. See our extensive archives for more discussion and links. If my answers don’t “mesh” with what other people have told you, those people are wrong.
July 20th, 2008 at 2:29 pm
We disagree about many things, or maybe mostly about a lot of semantics.
You said sports participation and awards were “meaningless” unless the applicant would be good enough to play for Williams. I continue to contend, as I did in my initial post, that participating in a sport and receiving an award for it are meaningful (and as an aside, how snarky of you to have insinuated that the CC poster’s Coach’s Award may be a “consolation” prize, knowing nothing about her, the award, or her school - that was unnecessary and just brought the level of the conversation down). Similarly, tutoring in an arts program and receiving an award for it are meaningful, and probably as meaningful as the sports, for they are valued as extracurriculars. (And national awards would obviously be much more meaningful than in-school awards.) I doubt many applicants to Williams are naive enough to think that such things will tip the balance, but they are still meaningful and important for, as you know, small American residential liberal arts schools (unlike, say, universities in Europe) care that their applicants have been involved in extracurriculars, and they can tell something about the applicants from those involvements, what the applicants made of their opportunities and what opportunities the applicants made for themselves. A place like Williams will turn down - or, more probably, deep-six wait-list many AR 1s and 2s if they haven’t been involved in extracurricular activities; I have seen this happen. I don’t think we really disagree on this. I responded as I did (and would continue to do so) because your response to a CC chancing inquiry was that her sports participation and award were meaningless. They aren’t; they are part of the whole package.
You will probably be amazed to learn that I’ve apparently read more about admissions than you have, talked with more applicants and current or recent students and read more recent applications than you have. Still, I don’t feel like an expert. As far as I’m concerned, there is a lot of uninformed chatter/speculation/jumping to conclusions/generalizing from statistics that goes around, a lot of people repeating the same things and thinking those statements are true because they’ve said them so often, and the only real “experts” on admissions at Williams are the Admission staff and a few other members of the administration. If all the things I’ve read about admissions proffered as the truth on EphBlog were in fact the truth, I wouldn’t be surprised if several dozen successful applicants (many of them enrollees) I could name off the top of my head would not have been admitted to Williams.
” I am accurately describing what matters in admissions to Williams and places like it. See our extensive archives for more discussion and links. If my answers don’t ‘mesh’ with what other people have told you, those people are wrong.”
The actual applicants and their applications that I have seen are “wrong” because what they say and what’s on their applications don’t fit with what you believe to be true? Interesting comment.
July 20th, 2008 at 2:41 pm
1) I meant “meaningless” in the context of estimating her chances of admissions to Williams.
2) I let Frank explain to you what “Coach’s Award” generally means (to him). I am less cynical, but, in the hierarchy of the awards that most teams give out, “Coach’s Award” is not at the top.
3) You write:
a) Specifics are helpful! What specific items are you talking about? A link would be great, but no need to find one if you don’t have it handy. Just tell us: “Dave says that X is true about admissions and it isn’t.” What is X?
b) Not to be rude, but who are you that you have read so many college applications and know so many accepted students? Do you work in a high school? I can think of very few people (who don’t live in Williamstown) who know “several dozen successful applicants.” I am sure that you do, of course, I am just trying to get some more context so I understand the basis for what you say.
As always, I am sometimes wrong (recent example here) about these things but am eager to learn more from those more informed than I.
July 20th, 2008 at 2:47 pm
P.S. As to how sports work, most schools these days do not require four years of sports or p.e. and many schools give the option of doing non-competitive and/or non-team activities (sometimes outside of the school altogether) to fulfill any requirements there may be. Some schools lay awards on everyone; some (particularly some progressive schools) rarely grant awards. The meaning of awards is the sort of thing guidance counselors many comment upon in their school recommendations and is the sort of thing the Williams Admissions people get a sense for, school-by-school, over the years. That kind of detail is why none of us can accurately chance most applicants, especially once they seem to fall within the “generally qualified” pool — well, maybe many of the readers think they can but I’m pretty sure I can’t (so every time I steer a wonderful girl towards Williams, I enter into a terrifying roller coaster ride).
July 20th, 2008 at 2:53 pm
David–nothing’s “meaningless.” Sure, an award like that will unlikely be the difference between an admit and a rejection alone, but in combination with other things, it could be. I misunderstood your point in your first post (I thought you meant the applicant should leave it off of the application), but still, I stand behind my point–every bit of information helps, in that it all contributes to the “bigger picture.” Without seeing this applicant’s essay or recommendations, the sad fact is we can’t really give an especially good evaluation of chances. That makes a fully listed resume all the more important for us to give an honest evaluation of chances.
Regardless, this is a pretty stupid topic to debate…unlike either of you, I actually have worked in the Williams Office of Admissions…and my expert insider opinion is that our ability to evaluate this person’s chances is going to be pretty mediocre with or without that information.
July 20th, 2008 at 3:12 pm
Amongst other things, I work regionally and nationally with girls in sports (and some other areas) and help the brightest of them with college admissions and scholarship applications. I also have two much closer recent or current connections to Williams (and a large bevy of contacts through those two). It may have been obvious to some of you who looked me up in the alumni directory that my moniker is not my actual name.
David, I will try, going forward, to tell you when I notice something that isn’t true, giving an actual example if I can figure out how to do that without compromising confidences from actual applicants or students. I have to put the girls’ privacy and confidences first (even that of those I guided towards or lost to the ‘herst or elsewhere). It’s imperative to me that the girls trust me but I am also reluctant to engage in the debates because they often become so confrontational, I often don’t know where to begin, and I generally don’t find that there’s a lot of listening going on.
July 20th, 2008 at 6:07 pm
1) No need to tell us about specific applicants, obviously. We are all interested in how Admissions works on average, not for any specific applicant.
2) To the extent that many/most of the “several dozen successful applicants” that you know are athletes who compete “regionally and nationally,” then, obviously, we are dealing with many tips/protects. What we write about them is, in the vast majority of cases, true. If that is your sample, then, of course, the claims I make about non-tips will seem wrong. But they are not.
See here for details. If there is anything there that is not consistent with your experience, let us know. But, since it is 90% based on written evidence from College officials, it is almost certainly correct. Don’t want to read it all? Start here.
As always, I take seriously claims that I am wrong about actual facts, in this case about how admissions works at Williams.
July 20th, 2008 at 8:10 pm
Only contribution is that playing on a sports team does help you, even if you are not good enough to play at Williams. I know because I played a sport, and I had the privilege of witnessing the discussion about my application in the admissions committee. The fact that I was a ballplayer was a point of real emphasis and made a big difference to them.
This was basketball, and I was a team captain and all-district player, so perhaps that helped, but it would be incorrect to advise a hopeful high schooler that such activities do not matter.
July 21st, 2008 at 2:10 pm
DK-
It looks like you think my remark about comments on athletics on EphBlog was directed solely or primarily at your statements. “EphBlog” doesn’t = “DK” when I write, and “EphBlog” isn’t synonymous with “KaneBlog” for me, and I actually was commenting about the whole kit and caboodle, not primarily your comments. There’s a lot of loose, imprecise talk in general about Williams athletics. Fortunately, there are regular contributors who know enormous amounts about the subject, including Jeff and Frank.
I don’t have time to go through your references and links tonight. I’m having computer/connection problems and am trying to get away on vacation. I’m more likely just to comment from time to time on things going forward, as I said I’d try to do.
Don’t expect too much. I couldn’t necessarily validate comments other than in the two sports I am particularly involved with (both primarily on the women’s side). No, the kids I have steered towards Williams aren’t tips (their academic stats are too high, and their athletic abilities vary) and they weren’t all planning to do sports in college — or they at least tend to look at the big picture, primarily the academics and social setting, before the athletics (scholar-athletes, not athletes who are going to school). Depending on the sport, lots of kids compete regionally and go to nationals with their club teams; I think you may have been overly impressed by my reference to competing “regionally and nationally” (although some of the girls are pretty impressive) - I was trying to tell you that the girls are serious and put a lot into it (by contrast with those who do a sport because they are expected to), and that I work with students from more than school or area.
Here are where I have often been frustrated by comments on EphBlog about athletics (and obviously I’m not referring to score reports and athlete profiles but to hot-button topics like admissions, tips, academic abilities, academic performance, drinking, and less-than-praiseworthy behavior off the courts and fields): those that are stated as though they are supposed to apply to all varsity athletics at Williams (or at Williams and its peer schools) but don’t fit the women’s teams the way they may fit the men’s team, or don’t fit track or crew the way they may fit football, or may apply to tips but don’t apply to the majority of athletes, or may apply to varsity athletes but not to intramural or club athletes, etc. Also, I don’t always sense that the writers are bearing in mind that the averages are often composed of significant ranges. If every writer were careful about not making generalizations about Williams athletics on the basis of one or two teams, clearly identified what team (or gender, where applicable) he or she was talking about, and was clear that he or she was talking about averages and that there are ranges making up the averages, the writing about sports at Williams on EphBlog would be more accurate.
(written Sun. night, to be posted when I can get a connection again)