Mon 28 Jul 2008
Dan Blatt recalls his classmate David Shipley.
When I first read that my Williams classmate David Shipley had taken over as Op-Ed editor of the New York Times, I saw it as a sign of improvement on the editorial page of the Old Gray Lady. Even though David had worked in the Clinton Administration, I had always known him as an even-handed, level-headed kind of guy. At college, he never showed any particular disdain for conservative ideas — and this in the heyday of the Reagan Revolution.
Indeed, I assumed it was David’s doing when the Times tapped such thoughtful conservatives as David Brooks and William Kristol to write regular columns for its Op-Ed page. He is the kind of guy who would welcome diverse viewpoints, including conservative ideas intelligently expressed.
At Williams, David was well-liked among his classmates, at least those of us who knew him. He kept a pretty low profile on campus. I recall he was soft-spoken. We rowed together freshman year.
But, David wasn’t one of those angry left-wingers (yes, we even had them on college campi even in my day), railing against the latest action by the Gipper. He may have had left-of-center political views, but he kept them pretty much to himself, at least in his conversations with me. And I was a pretty outspoken undergraduate, particularly during my sophomore and junior years.
…
Thus, I was surprised to learn that he had personally rejected (or at least written the e-mail rejecting) presumptive Republican nominee John McCain’s column for the New York Times.
The David Shipley who so readily listened to his Williams peers was now dictating how one party’s candidate should write about our nation’s Iraq policy. I want to believe David’s distinction between accepting Obama’s piece and rejecting that of his Republican rival, that the Obama essay “offered new information.” Given the increasingly biased record of the Times, I am skeptical, even of a man whose even-handedness I have long respected.
…
I hope David still shows the same respect for conservatives he did at Williams and in our 1993 lunch. His failure to publish this editorial shows the decline of the paper whose Op-Eds he now edits.
Read the whole thing. Previous discussion here. I was surprised at how dismissive some of our commentators were of McCain’s argument. It is reasonable to believe that McCain was (and is) wrong about the best policy for Iraq. But, if you assume for a moment that McCain’s policies are correct (as at least 20% of US citizens believe), then his op-ed piece seems to make a perfectly reasonable argument for them. If you disagree, what specific lines would you change?
Shipley also gets a mention in the American Thinker.
Newsflash to David Shipley: McCain’s editorial was a rebuttal, not a Time Life Books® companion piece. And as the New York Times’ readership is reputed to be intellectually savvy, I don’t think there would be much danger of them confusing McCain’s views with those of the left-leaning Times editorial board.
By the way, the New York Post snapped up what the Times rejected and published McCain’s op-ed. The decision by the Times to reject McCain has turned into a major publicity nightmare. Better tell Pinch that’s not exactly good news for stockholders.
Of course, every news outlet has the right to reject content based on editorial standards - our right to free speech does not translate to an obligation for a newspaper or other media outlet to publish us. But in this instance, the Times risks being labeled as lopsided.
Indeed.

July 28th, 2008 at 7:16 am
Stick a fork in her, the NYT is cooked - time to call for middle relief. Even Connie Mack would know in this cyberage that the paper is tired, has lost location, is behind in the count and with each pitch becomes harder hit. Why don’t commentatators of all political stripes on this blog openly recognize this? Home team unreasonably hoping to be able to stay with its aging starter for one more inning? Visitors desiring to continue to enjoy their roughing up of a former ace? Obama has a point about political timeliness - despite his lack of smoke and his inability to keep the ball down.
July 28th, 2008 at 7:48 am
“Indeed,” this alleged “bias” argument has already been thoroughly and comprehensively eviscerated on the earlier thread. This is another common Kane technique on this blog — lose an argument, fail to respond to compelling points raised in a thread, wait until everyone has forgotten about it / is sick of talking about, then a few days/weeks/months later post the same argument, in a slightly different form, on a new thread. Well played, David.
Why are conservatives so frigging obsessed with the one newspaper that has a slight left wing tint, yet still gives plenty of air space to right wing loonies like William Kristol? If only the leading conservative news “outlets” — the Post, Limbaugh, WSJ, Fox “News”, Drudge Report, etc. etc. aimed for even a tiny fraction of the objectivity / balance / fairness / reporting and editorials of the NYTimes, how nice would that be. If people on the right REALLY cared about media bias as something problematic (they don’t) they would every once in awhile turn their gaze inwards at the far more problematic and far less balanced approach of the ever growing right wing media empire. Instead, they’d rather fight the messenger than the message, because right now, they are losing badly in the court of public opinion when it comes to the message.
July 28th, 2008 at 8:06 am
wow is the american thinker a canard full of fallacies and absurd leaps of logic. that’s the argument you say “indeed” to? pathetic.
July 28th, 2008 at 8:06 am
I think it’s important to look at this incident in the context in which it occurred.
McCain’s campaign for President rests centrally on his presumed superior judgment on issues related to commander-in-chief duties. In national polling, it is McCain’s most significant advantage among not very many others.
The tension between the candidates’ Iraq policies is central to McCain’s campaign.
McCain advocated for a victory, using as much time and resources as it might take and not setting a timeline or horizon for withdrawal but deciding based on conditions on the ground.
Obama advocates ending the involvement of our combat troops with phased withdrawal.
Events conspired against McCain’s defining policy position, what to so about our war/occupation of Iraq. Al Maliki, the head of sovereign Iraq, agreed that a withdrawal of US combat troops in a timeframe that was similar to what Obama advocated, was what Iraq wanted. The McCain campaign was fucked. It needed to move and move quickly.
The op ed McCain submitted did not present new ideas or new ways of thinking about old ideas, it attacked Obama’s policy and rebutted Obama’s Op Ed. Shipley rejected that framing. The rejection was delivered with comments by the editor about what could be done to make it accepted… and we’ll see if the McCain campaign actually cares to actually have it published.
The McCain campaign is trying to make hay with anything is can at this point. It needs to establish leverage against the Obama campaign.
- McCain’s campaign is attacking the media, NYT as well as the major networks about the coverage they get versus the coverage Obama gets.
- The McCain campaign is attacking the presumptuous (reads like ‘uppity’) Obama for wanting to speak to the German people at a place reserved for the lines of Reagan and elected Presidents.
- They’re attcking him for not visiting soldiers in Landstuhl.
It is attack time and it works but we also know that it doesn’t necessarily help us elect the best leader for the country. It gave us Bush not McCain in 2000.
Rove protege Steve Schmidt has been working to get the McCain campaign back on track… What is ironic, is the way the McCain campaign is treating the national press while they complain about the media.
July 28th, 2008 at 8:19 am
Speaking of which, more evidence that the purported media bias, at least when it comes to Obama and McCain, is a myth:
http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-onthemedia27-2008jul27,0,712999.story
The right wing was been so successful in spreading the myth of media bias, the mainstream media are afraid to ever report anything marginally provocative about McCain (imagine if Obama had a series of affairs prior to ditching his injured wife only to marry a rich younger woman who financed his entire political career — can you imagine how often we’d hear about it, day after day after day???? or if it was Obama, not McCain, who has been implicated in the Keating Five? Or McCain’s decades-long opposition to the MLK holiday — it is like the man is sacrosanct and any story that would make him look bad can not be reported). Just like the media enabled the Bush foreign policy for decades. They have been completely cowed by false charges of bias — it is like a basketball player who keeps hitting the back of the rim after he is told again and again that he does not put enough force into his shot.
July 28th, 2008 at 8:57 am
Does it qualify as media bias when the Bush white house faxes talking points daily to Fox and their on-air talent repeats the talking points breathlessly? We used to call that government propaganda and the law of the land made it illegal.
The latest talking point is “presumptuous” Do you know to whom they’re referring?
July 28th, 2008 at 9:00 am
Pathetic effort on Blatt’s part to paint Shipley in a certain light. Very similar problems to McCain’s piece; not well written, focused on making Shipley look bad, based on partisan nonsense…the major difference being that Blatt’s piece is passive aggressive.
His editor should have rejected this draft and asked him to re-focus the piece. Oh wait…no editor issue to deal with…unless you count David as serving that position…which would mean that here on EB, we have an editor who is ignoring his constituency and exhibiting a definite partisan bias.
Indeed.
July 28th, 2008 at 11:21 am
The Times is a pretty good newspaper and more balanced than most. However, it does not have an absolute commitment to factual accuracy.For years the Times has refered to Boss Tweed as William Marcy Tweed although biographers agree his name was William Magear Tweed. The Times was trying to connect Tweed with an earlier notorious boss, a guy named Marcy. To this day it sticks to this little insult.
This is a trivial point, of concern only to scholars. But, it would be good if the USA had a true newspaper of record. Still it doesn’t matter all that much as long as serious writers know that the Times is a little sloppy on facts especially when figures it hates are involved.
July 28th, 2008 at 12:18 pm
I stopped reading here:
The notion that there is anything thoughtful or intelligent about Bill Kristol is an utterly bizarre one. Anything Dan Blatt says after these two sentences loses all credibility or right to be taken seriously.
July 28th, 2008 at 12:52 pm
It is troubling to me to read some of these comments, particularly difficult to believe that some of those chiming in graduated from America’s finest small college.
It seems the meanest come from those upset with me for praising my classmate for his gutsy move in bringing William Kristol to the Times editorial page. It was gutsy because bringing such a conservative on board would earn him the ire of many on the left — as these comments indicate. It is to David’s credit (and that of the Times) that he stood by the decision even after many criticized him for it.
Don’t let my praise for David be lost in my criticism of this one recent decision. I commend him for publishing intelligent conservative opinion on a left-leaning editorial page. On the whole, he has done a good job of bringing some balance to that page.
In light of the Times’ reputation, he should have considered how conservatives would react if his paper rejected an essay by the presumptive presidential candidate of one of our nation’s two political parties. His decision helped reinforce the paper’s image of being dismissive toward Republicans and our ideas.
As to Kristol, to engage in the type of name-calling at least two of the previous commenters do suggests a lack of familiarity with the man’s ideas. To so casually dismiss him suggests a ready rejection of an opinions at odds with your own.
And I thought we were taught at Williams to respect opposing viewpoints well expressed. At least I was.
After all, it was a Marxist Political Science professor who helped introduce me to neo-conservatism. Alas that the great Kurt Tauber has long since retired from teaching.
July 28th, 2008 at 12:55 pm
Kristol is an embarrassment to the conservative movement. His presence on the Times editorial page probably helps the left, all things considered. My problem with Kristol is not with his opinions, per se, but with his sloppy methodology and lazy reasoning. I have the same issue with other Times columnists like Friedman and Dowd - they have grown and fat and lazy on their perch, and now publish entirely sub-standard material.
July 28th, 2008 at 1:07 pm
Almost all political partisans - like the majority of humans - want advantage, not fairness, balance or justice - and if they already have advantage, then they want more advantage.
July 28th, 2008 at 1:11 pm
Dan,
It is troubling to me to read your comments that accuse a classmate of bias simply because of the context of a slight left-leaning op-ed page…one that he clearly has actively tried to balance (much to my chagrin–David Brooks needs to be banned from misinterpreting social science–it hurts to read–and Kristol is lazy). Such a slippery slope reasoning from a graduate of America’s finest college? tsk tsk.
I can play that game too.
Shipley did not reject McCain’s opportunity to publish, he simply asked for a better draft. It was the McCain campaign that decided that attacking the op-ed page was better strategy than revising and resubmitting. That Shipley had the courage to ask that of a campaign piece should be applauded, not rejected. If only we more broadly held campaigns to a standard like Shipley did.
I’ve yet to hear someone raving about the bias Shipley showed actually point to where McCain succeeded in providing “new information.” It read like a hit piece–as I’ve noted before, Obama mentioned McCain twice. I don’t know that more than two paragraphs in McCain’s piece failed to mention Obama. Yes we can [do better].
July 28th, 2008 at 1:27 pm
Perhaps publishing Kristol and Brooks is part of the NYT’s secret plan to permanently discredit the notion of intellectual conservatism? I mean, yes, I know WFB is dead, and going through the current roster of NR/Weekly Standard writers is depressing as hell (it’s about 70% bigots and crackpots at this point), but surely there must be some out there. Reihan Salam, for one, has always impressed me.
July 28th, 2008 at 1:45 pm
Dan,
I’d find your case more compelling if I had seen any more of a back-and-forth between the campaign and the Times. As it stands, it seems like the McCain folks gave up on getting the thing published after the first draft in the interest of scoring points on the Times by leaking the “more like Obama” quote.
Furthermore, I’m sure the McCain folks would have leaked any more of the exchange, as it would have bolstered their case that they had made an real effort to be published.
In other words, I can understand (though not agree with) an allegation of bias in this case, but its harder when it seems like the Times was acting in good faith, and the McCain folks were not.
July 28th, 2008 at 1:45 pm
I second Reihan Salam, by the way.
July 28th, 2008 at 2:13 pm
Dan, attacking Kristol is by no means a sign of lack of intellectual rigor or liberal bias. To say we are not familiar with his ideas is itself ignorant and patronizing (and hardly the sort of unfounded personal attack that one should be making when bemoaning the purported lack of intellectual rigor displayed by fellow Ephs). Put it this way, Dan … would you praise an Eph who was opinions editor of the Wall Street Journal or of Fox News if they provided a platform to Dan Rather for a weekly opinion piece the week after his discredited story on Bush? Of course not, you would bitch and moan, as would all conservatives. Well, all Rather did was get ONE story about Bush wrong (and in all events, the essence of what he had to report was true: Bush bashed his opponent’s service record when he was the one who had skillfully evaded active duty through his connections).
Kristol has been MUCH more egregious in his factual inaccuracies (and ridiculously wrong-headed predictions), over a MUCH longer period of time, and on a MUCH more important topic, than Rather ever was. See, e.g.:
http://historyunfolding.blogspot.com/2007/10/william-kristol-on-iraq-2003-7.html
And I’m not even getting into the “facts” about Obama that he had to retract.
I have no problem with David Brooks, personally, nor would I with providing such a prominent forum to any other conservative who has not been so loose with facts / generally off target. As I said, if only Fox News, etc. would strive for as much balance as the Times …
July 28th, 2008 at 2:17 pm
Dan - if you have so much respect for Shipley, why haven’t you respected the truthfulness of the reasons he gave for declining to publish the *version* of the opinion piece initially submitted by the McCain campaign? It seems you will only respect his judgment if his final decision agrees with yours? As others have said, and as Shipley himself has said repeatedly, they did not reject the McCain piece. They asked for it to be edited.
Did McCain come back to Shipley and argue how much it should be edited or how it already accomplished what the Times claimed it didn’t? So far as the public knows they did not. Instead they opted to take their toys and go home. Obviously it was a far better PR decision to appeal to the looking-for-bias right wing of the Republican party, but it doesn’t hold water for anyone else.
Absent any attempt to comply with the structural problems of the piece - or even have a dialogue about it - any bias claims are just political puffery. I’m sorry McCain’s campaign feels entitled to print anything they want with equal space in a newspaper they don’t own. Too bad. Do any of the Fox News-ish media outlets (they claim to be “fair and balanced”) provide equal space to liberals or dems? Not that I’ve noticed. So take your toys and go home if you’d like, but don’t cloak yourself in intellectual honesty and chide the rest of us for having opinions.
I disagree with your analysis of Shipley and this decision, but I fully support your right to give it. I am sorry it is “troubling” for you to believe that other commenters also graduated from Williams, although I’m not sure why. You said
What about the above comments contradicts that statement? The arguments are that Kristol does not express himself well in the NYT, something I think well-publicized misrepresentations and wrong facts in his first few months demonstrated quite well. I personally find David Brooks to write rather well, though I disagree with him most of the time (yes, Rory, despite his and every other non-sociologists’ misuse of social science). Marueen Dowd (someone that I supposedly would like as a liberal if bias rings true), in my opinion writes pretty thin columns, with quite a petty streak running through them. Granted, I get a chuckle out of them sometimes, mostly when I’m looking for that spiteful sarcasm. And Frank Rich, whose politics seem to run to independent, is a lovely writer who argues well. So again, the issue is not really disrespecting thoughts “well expressed” but the absolute conceit that most Williams students have of thinking lesser of any argument when poorly expressed.
If you think one’s respect of conservative writing is to be judged by an assessment of Kristol’s writing in the NYT, then I feel for other conservative writers who accomplish that feat with more dexterity, clarity, and factual basis. Kristol may be a brilliant conservative thinker, but has he shown that in his writing for the Times?
July 28th, 2008 at 2:29 pm
Daniel Larison is another excellent conservative writer whose writing deserves wider circulation than Kristol’s hackery:
http://www.amconmag.com/larison/
July 28th, 2008 at 2:36 pm
JG,
Brooks certainly writes well but unlike most other non social scientists who write well, he portrays himself as a knowing discussant of social science without needing to actually, you know, talk to the social scientists who do the work. It’s one thing to be a layperson discussing social science (hey, that’s the ideal for us–buy our books!), its another thing entirely to be a layperson who reinterprets social science findings. guess which one brooks is…:)
July 28th, 2008 at 3:03 pm
In case you are having a good day, I recommend reading Kristol’s latest:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/28/opinion/28kristol.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
Reading this feels like having sharp needles jabbed repeatedly into your eyeballs. The stupidity is just painful.
July 28th, 2008 at 3:07 pm
Actually, no, it feels more like blunt needles. Blunt, rusty needles that have long lost whatever point they may have once had.
July 28th, 2008 at 3:18 pm
Dan,
I regret saying your piece was ‘badly written’. The truth is, you write well, and I have enjoyed reading your comments from time to time.
However, I did find it offensive that you used personal recollections of Shipley to shape a comment based on exactly what you are accusing him of; a partisan reaction on your part. If anything, the way you describe Shipley fortifies my initial impression of him; that he was just doing his job as editor.
And as a couple of other commenters have pointed out more ably than I (Williams grads after all!), enough has been said about this. It is an unjustified accusation and way too much whining about something that hasn’t hurt McCain at all.
If anything, he has gotten more mileage out of this than if it hadn’t happened. Everyone has seen the ‘rejected’ piece, he has a nice little wave of ‘underdog sympathy’ going on, and the Times will give him the space for a (second) piece that will end up having a much larger audience than Obama’s article.
So enough already…
July 28th, 2008 at 3:36 pm
Soph Mom–
I want to believe David’s e-mail which I linked on my own blog and read several times. Yet, the simple problem is the Times’ reputation. You’d think they’d jump at the chance to publish this piece.
I am convinced David is a good man and a good editor, but am puzzled by this rejection. I read McCain’s piece. It was well-written, thoughtful. Wouldn’t a paper want its editorial page to be a forum for the presidential candidates?
And JG, what got me about his e-mail was when he was dictating to the nominee of the party with which his paper is often at odds what he should be saying in an Op-Ed. That is what caused me to wonder. It wasn’t just that David asked that the piece be edited, but that he was telling the Republican nominee what he wanted to see in the piece.
As per Will Slack’s comment, I want to believe the Times was acting in good faith, but when they are requesting the writer to include specific content in his piece, I am skeptical.
You claim that Kristol offers “well-publicized misrepresentations and wrong facts,” yet proivde no evidence of that. While I agree with you that Frank Rich does write well (on most days), he is hardly an independent, with a hard anti-conservative bias who regularly misrepresents conservative ideas and individuals.
And Soph Mom, you’re right, McCain has gotten more mileage out of this than if the Times had published it. Something I pointed out in my original post. ;-)
July 28th, 2008 at 3:37 pm
And just for the record, I happen to like the NYTimes.
And though I may disagree with what they have to say, I respect (and often even enjoy) the writing of Brooks, Kristol, Rich, Dowd, and Friedman.
(ducking here to avoid what will now be thrown my way…or at least returning to sight-seeing) :-)
July 28th, 2008 at 3:56 pm
Dan, your argument goes like this:
1. I respect Shipley from what I know of him at Williams–I remember him being open to dialog and relatively free of bias.
2. Shipley seems likely to have been responsible for hiring conservative columnists, moves that I highly respect, partially because they seem to reflect Shipley’s lack of bias.
3. The Times has a history of bias.
4. Because of its history of bias, the Times must publish the piece, regardless of its journalistic worth.
5. The Times did not publish the piece.
—————————————-
Conclusion: Shipley must be biased.
Do you see how people have a problem with your argument? To begin with, few on this board agree with your fourth premise, that the Times should publish the piece simply because it is from McCain. This isn’t a partisan argument–many on this board (including myself) believe that all newspapers have the responsibility to only publish honest, accurate, original, and reasonably well-written pieces. If you want to argue that McCain’s piece is all of the above, go ahead. If you want to argue that it doesn’t matter, that’s a different argument, but you need to go into much more detail about it than you have. Even if we accept your fourth premise, your first two premises seem to be at odds with your conclusion. You seem to be doubting Shipley’s professionalism solely on the basis of a previously held skepticism towards the Times. I don’t tihnk that’s fair of you, and I don’t think others posting here think it’s fair.
I’m sorry that other posters came across as being close-minded to other points of view in their responses…I hope the above post helps clarify how one could take issue with your original post in an entirely non-partisan way.
July 28th, 2008 at 4:07 pm
Dan,
what an amazing slippery slope. “New information” = “specific content”? No, no it doesn’t. Shipley did not ask for specific content, rather just a broad category of content (”new”). cmon.
Further, on Frank Rich, you create a false dichotomy. not being a conservative does not invalidate one’s position as an “independent”. Just like not being a liberal does not equal losing one’s independence.
Again, looking at McCain’s piece (and really–thoughtful and well-written? where? what?) there were a total of 3…3 (randomly, number of paragraphs in Obama’s piece that mention McCain-3)! paragraphs that did not include the name Obama. The New York Times, while it certainly has reason to want to include op-eds by the presidential campaigns, does not–as we discussed in our previous thread on this issue–want to allow its opinions page to be taken over by the presidential candidates without editorial oversight. The piece was an attack rebuttal, as such, I see it as perfectly reasonable to reject it until McCain offered more than that. However, to be political, McCain seems unable to offer anything else on the war except empty rhetoric and attacks. And he calls Obama the orator…
here’s a couple fun Kristol “d’ohs!” from a simple google search:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/21/opinion/21wed5-001.html?ref=opinion
(note: Utah wasn’t uncontested, btw)
http://thinkprogress.org/2008/03/17/kristol-issues-a-correction-i-regret-the-error/
funny that it happened in his FIRST COLUMN for the times:
http://blogrevolution.com/archives/2008/01/07/3121482.html
here’s a post with favorite Kristol errors: http://glenngreenwald.blogspot.com/2007/01/bill-kristol-pundit-superstar.html
July 28th, 2008 at 4:12 pm
Dan,
We cross-posted…nice to hear back from you.
I guess the crux of it may come down to a matter of opinion on McCain’s piece. I honestly believed it was weak, primarily because of it’s focus on Obama. One could argue that it was a rebuttal, but the truth is, Obama’s piece wasn’t focused enough on McCain to warrant a full-on rebuttal. Just counting the times Obama uses McCain’s name vs, the times that McCain uses Obama’s, is an interesting exercise…
And Ronit,
Geez, I have to admit, I haven’t read the Times for a few days and so missed that latest Kristol piece. If I had seen it, it might have prompted me to take him off my list…at least temporarily. But, from time to time, conservatism aside, he comes up with some pretty good articles about gender issues.
July 28th, 2008 at 4:14 pm
I tried to post a link outlining just how wrong and how often Kristol was about the Iraq war, but I guess my comment got filtered out as spam.
I will try again with this post, with another example of Kristol’s sloppiness / fabrications:
http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/03/kristol_bungles_key_fact_in_an.php
July 28th, 2008 at 4:15 pm
Trying again with the first, earlier post.
Dan, attacking Kristol is by no means a sign of lack of intellectual rigor or liberal bias. To say we are not familiar with his ideas is itself ignorant and patronizing (and hardly the sort of unfounded personal attack that one should be making when bemoaning the purported lack of intellectual rigor displayed by fellow Ephs). Put it this way, Dan … would you praise an Eph who was opinions editor of the Wall Street Journal or of Fox News if they provided a platform to Dan Rather for a weekly opinion piece the week after his discredited story on Bush? Of course not, you would bitch and moan, as would all conservatives. Well, all Rather did was get ONE story about Bush wrong (and in all events, the essence of what he had to report was true: Bush bashed his opponent’s service record when he was the one who had skillfully evaded active duty through his connections).
Kristol has been MUCH more egregious in his factual inaccuracies (and ridiculously wrong-headed predictions), over a MUCH longer period of time, and on a MUCH more important topic, than Rather ever was. See, e.g.:
http://historyunfolding.blogspot.com/2007/10/william-kristol-on-iraq-2003-7.html
And I’m not even getting into the “facts” about Obama that he had to retract.
I have no problem with David Brooks, personally, nor would I with providing such a prominent forum to any other conservative who has not been so loose with facts / generally off target. As I said, if only Fox News, etc. would strive for as much balance as the Times …
July 28th, 2008 at 4:56 pm
Sorry about that, jeffz and nuts. Our Akismet spam filter has been a little over-aggressive lately, and has been suspended without pay pending an investigation.
July 28th, 2008 at 5:24 pm
Glad to see my post sparked such a discussion. :-)
Wish I had time to address all the points.
Jeff Z, amazing how much you see “all conservatives” as bitching & moaning. WOW. Talk about intolerance and misunderstanding. You should take some time to familiarize yourself with conservative ideas and individuals. You’d see we’re far more than that.
And why bring up Dan Rather? The issue here is one Op-Ed by a presidential candidate. If McCain were submitting regular editorials to the Times, I might get your point, but given the context of the piece and its rejection, it’s all the more striking.
Interesting that almost all the links (in other comments, esp. from rory) to pieces attempting to discredit Kristol are from bloggers with a similarly narrow attitude toward conservatives that we’re all bitchers and moaners.
July 28th, 2008 at 5:27 pm
oh, and rory, missed your first comment. I’m only faulting David for the way he handled this one Op-Ed. If you read my post, you’ll see me praising him for bringing in thoughtful conservatives to his editorial page.
It just seems out of character, that’s all. One of the readers to my blog suggested that I e-mail him. Perhaps I should have done that instead of writing this piece.
July 28th, 2008 at 5:49 pm
Sigh, Dan, it’s called an analogy / example. Pick some other liberal that the right doesn’t like who is known for factual inaccuracies or discredited theories (I picked Rather because he is the only one I could think of, there really is no prominent liberal equivalent to the Anne Coulters and Limbaughs of the world, let alone the Kristols of the world, so far as I am aware), imagine they were invited to have a frequent, high-profile forum on Fox News or the WSJ, and tell me how you or other conservatives you know would react. All I was doing was showing that those on this thread objecting to Kristol’s place on the NYT editorial page have a legitimate beef, rooted in something beyond reflixive ideology — something you have been unable to rebut. The FACT is that McCain gets disproporitionately positive media coverage compared to Obama, yet still whines and moans about how unfair the press is to him. Drives me crazy, just shut up and stop whining about the bogeyman of non-existent liberal bias in this election.
The Kristol / Obama screw-up was well documented, as are his wrong-headed views on Iraq. Apparently, the only way you can defend Kristol is by attacking those who report his mistakes / misperceptions, just like the only way you can argue with fellow Ephs who disagree with you on this thread is by disparaging the education they received (rather than addressing the points they raise).
You are right about one thing, I should not say “all conservatives.” I will amend that to the “primary conservative media voices, including Limbaugh, Coulter, Fox News, O’Reilly et. al., as well as the conservatives who tend to post most frequently on Ephblog.”
July 28th, 2008 at 7:10 pm
Dan @23, as others have provided the links, I will not bother to add to it. But they were well-publicized, the Times actually ran a few corrections (unusual for the Op-Ed page), and as Rory demonstrated, a quick Google search can turn them up. So I think my statement of “well-publicized misrepresentations and wrong facts” was quite accurate (and polite, considering). You seemed to be a pretty aware and informed person, so I figured you would have noticed the hoopla.
July 28th, 2008 at 7:36 pm
CBS edits McCain’s sloppy comments on the Evening News and sticks in Rove talking point “Obama is a traitor” … another fine example of the “liberal bias”.
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/07/23/by_howard_kurtz_when_cbss.html?hpid=topnews
Give it a rest people; we all know there is a massive McCain bias in the media. He has been personally calling Obama a traitor who supports genocide for over two weeks nearly unchecked now. He did it while Obama was overseas, no less.
When was the last time a US Senator called one of his colleagues a traitor while that colleague was overseas in a war zone? I am having a hard time remembering? When did that become ethical?
July 28th, 2008 at 8:42 pm
JG, just realized how counterproductive it was (for the purposes of the ideas put forward in my post which Dave linked) to address the occasional errors of Bill Kristol.
After all, my post was on David Shipley not Kristol.
As the better part of the comments on this thread have shown, Kristol is a lightning rod for liberal attacks. That David (Shipley) would bring such a man on, especially given the Times’s readership, speaks to my classmate’s qualities. That he keeps him on despite such criticism shows his commitment to keeping a conservative presence on his Op-Ed Page even if that presence upsets Kristol’s ideological adversaries.
Would that he had shown a similar commitment in responding to the submission for the presumptive GOP presidential nominee.
July 28th, 2008 at 9:50 pm
One more thought before I officially stop reading about or thinking about this whole thing. I apologize to the corpse of the equine that I am now kicking.
I actually wish Shipley would show the same commitment to quality writing and rigor with Kristol that he apparently showed to the McCain campaign. Both parties are worthy of a place on the Op-Ed page (yes, even though Rory/Ronit/Jeff Z may not agree with me, I do believe this), and presenting a variety of views strengthens the Op-Ed page overall. I desire only quality writing and argument on those pages. I wish Shipley would similarly edit the quality of Dowd and Friedman a bit more closely.
Not all good thinkers are good writers or, more accurately, are writers aptly suited for the particular forum of an Op-Ed page in a daily newspaper. While I don’t particularly like Bill Kristol, the number of intelligent people out there who admire him leads me to believe that he is a person of ideas and substance. So far, I don’t think he has shown that in the Times. Likewise, I think that McCain is a person of ideas who has insight to offer, but that Op-Ed did not reflect them - or him - well. It came off as an attack piece with little forethought or semblance of an original idea or pan. Given that this issue is supposed to be one of his strong points, I’m sure McCain can write a good editorial on his plans and policy for Iraq (or whatever issue he chooses). When he does so, I’m sure the Times will be more than happy to publish it.
July 28th, 2008 at 10:18 pm
JG, though we disagree about the McCain piece, we do agree about Dowd and Friedman. What happened to Friedman? He used to be sharp and insightful–at least when I read him.
Now, he’s just sloppy. Maybe his fame got to him.
July 28th, 2008 at 10:48 pm
Of course McCain will get his space…and with at least twice the readership that he would have had with the first piece.
As far as Dowd and Friedman being edited “a bit more closely”?
Dowd got a pretty serious ‘dressing down’ by her very own editors not too long ago. And ironically, it had to do with her writing on Hillary.
And if EB is any example of how hard it is to satisfy a diverse readership? Well…then…the job of these writers (and their editors), is next to impossible.
July 28th, 2008 at 11:13 pm
I find it astonishing that so many smart conservatives and republicans so reflexively defend what has been a disasterous presidency embarked on a colossal strategic blunder.
Conservatives would have been welcome allies in blunting the corrosive effects of the many abuses of power by W’s crew over the last seven+ years. I do not why so many consveratives were silent or willing accomplices in these blunders.
Is the last seven years (and Kristol, Abromof, DeLay) what conservatism has to offer this country? I hope not.
This country needs both dissent and informed debate. Assailing your opponent’s patriotism over timelines (or it is time horizons?) is not helpful or honorable.
After this election, I am hoping for an Obama win and am really looking forward to the wingnuts breaking out their copies of the constitution again (after eight years) so we can hear again about “jack booted thugs” in the FBI, ATF etc. like in the good old 1990’s.
July 29th, 2008 at 1:03 am
Jeff S., not sure what you feel compelled so begin you comment, “I find it astonishing that so many smart conservatives and republicans so reflexively defend what has been a disastrous presidency embarked on a colossal strategic blunder.”
Why do so many on the left find it necessary to call our defenses of the administration reflexive and the presidency a disaster?
If you’d bother to read the conservative blogs (and editorial pages), you’d find regular criticism of the Administration, with the standard refrain that, particularly in his second term, W has been a disappointment. I even have a category on my blog, “Where W Went Wrong” and am currently working on a post on the politicization of the Justice Department, wondering why Bush brought in cronies and partisan hacks instead of topnotch legal scholars.
To call conservatives silent is to ignore the buckets of ink spilled and number of pixels used taking issue with the Administration. And on defense policy, the much maligned (in this thread at least) Bill Kristol has led the way, calling for then-Defense Secretary Rumsfeld’s ouster before it became chic to do so.
That said, the abuses of power have been considerably fewer than those in the previous Administration.
Disappointment the Administration has been, but disastrous, hardly.
Jeff Z., not quite sure what your point is about attacking Kristol.
And why is it that you repeatedly bring up Dan Rather? He’s not the nominee of a major political party. Don’t make assumptions about me. That’s worse than patronizing. Actually, if a conservative paper offered a forum to Dan Rather after his story on Bush, I would actually commend them for giving space to those they criticize.
So, you’re wrong here. Dead wrong. I wouldn’t bitch and moan nor would “all conservatives” (as you claim). You’re just making blanket assumptions about all conservatives.
In attempting to wade through the long post you link does little to discredit the man. He is quoted as saying, “we may be turning the corner on the debate . . . . the situation on the ground may well be turning.” (Emphasis added.) It seems he gave himself quite a lot of wiggle room. Anyway, that’s hardly get the facts wrong, it’s just getting the forecast wrong.
Not long after that, at least well before the Administration changed course in Iraq, he was acknowledging the failure of the existing strategy and pushing for a change.
July 29th, 2008 at 6:05 am
Dan -
This admin has had the distinction of rolling the bay of pigs, gulf of Tonkin resolution, watergate and Iran Contra into one. Please note the indictment of two blunders under Democratic administrations.
The admin has been a disaster - not just for liberals but for conservatives and Republicans.
I will give Kristol credit for having called for Rumsfeld’s ouster - even a blind squirrell find the nut once in awhile. But do you really want to inventory Kristol’s serial use of faulty reasoning and deluded logic since the Iraq misadaventure began (others have linked - I will spare us all)?
And do you really want to spend your time defending the indefensible? You remind me of a Japanese soldier stranded on a pacific atol who is still fighting WWII and willing to die for the emperor in 1958.
Do you really want to equate Paula Jones to Iraq, DOJ, secret prisons, warrantless wire tapping, and torture. Please. You have shown your true colors.
I think all but the dead-end 20%’ers are happy to have this debate as long as you would like. If it were me, I would cut my losses and disown the apostate Bush. I did it with WJC and it feels great.
Time and history are not your friend on this one.
July 29th, 2008 at 7:36 am
Soph Mom - I actually didn’t agree with Dowd getting a talking-to over her Hillary coverage. I didn’t agree with the tone of it, but the Opinion page is for opinions. I really meant the writing quality and the facts she (and Friedman, Krugman, etc.) toss into the columns sometimes. Example: today’s correction of her piece from last week.
Perhaps too many years of fancy education has ruined me, or I am far too exacting a grammarian, or too particular about research and citation (am a lawyer after all), but I get frustrated by sloppy writing. That article I linked was about a quote allegedly said by General Petraeus. The correction comes because no one bothered to source/fact check the quote. That is a basic level of editorial competence, isn’t it? If the quote is disputed but widely reported, just acknowledge that in the article and move on - no correction would then be needed. This fits in as well with Rory’s criticism of the blatant misuse of social science and statistical info. Nobody bothers to check that the numbers are right (cough, cough, Kristol) or that the conclusions of whatever report match what they are claiming them to be (Brooks). If I got 2 phone calls and 2 emails over a 1 paragraph letter to the editor in the Washington Post last week, a newspaper should be able to take the time to edit critically and fact-check a once- or twice-weekly column.
Again, I fully expect to disagree with much or most of what I see on an Op-Ed page. The pieces are meant to be thought provoking. I want to see a range of opinions from smart people on topics of importance. I just don’t want to be mislead, distracted by poor writing, or annoyed by bad argument. I can just read blogs for that ;)
July 29th, 2008 at 9:11 am
The administration that:
-misled the country into war in Iraq
-Has failed to adequately build Afghanistan into a functioning state after invading
-Oversaw KATRINA
-Did I mention KATRINA!!!!!!!!!!
-Politicized the hiring of civil servants
-has run a gargantuan deficit while overseeing an increase in federal spending
-provided absolutely no framework for energy independence during the eight years when it seemed most critical
-Was in power when multiple states violated the NPT
-okayed torture in US policy
-i can continue, but you get the idea.
Is not disastrous?????? Has abused power less than Clinton (don’t forget: politicized the DOJ and hiring in general)????????? CMON.
jesus, dan, i had thought you were a smart conservative. I’m starting to doubt that.
July 29th, 2008 at 9:57 am
I think it will be interesting to see which members of the Bush admin are unwilling to travel abroad post administration for fear of a Pinochet style indictment and prolonged visit at the Hague while some unpleasant legal matters are addressed.
Dan - You may want to hold off on booking that grand European tour with the Yoos, Addingtons, Gonzaleses and Rumsfelds (not to mention Bushes and Cheneys).
I would add to above list by Rory trillions in unfunded liabilities. Politicization of science regarding air quality and climate change. Gagg order on CMS actuary to hide true cost of prescription drug benefit (something that should really get Dan and David’s blood boiling).
Lastly, the cynical use of 911 and GWOT for partsian political purposes in 2002 and 2004. Rather than building consensus domestically, Bush sought to exploit 911 for short term partisan benefit - “War on Terror” as Republican brand.
We can contrast this with Dan Burton’s extensive hearings into the Clinton’s abuses of the WH christmas card list. Now that is responsible Congressional oversight.
July 29th, 2008 at 11:03 am
Sorry to be getting in on this so late, but the notion that hiring Kristol was any type of brave or bold step is simply absurd. Utterly and completely. William Kristol is the editor of the Weekly Standard. He also appears on Fox News regularly, and before his Times gig, produced pieces for the WSJ Op-Ed page among others. This is not a man who has had to want for exposure. He is the definition of a known commodity; a central figure in the neo-con media and policy intelligentsia. (He’s an adviser to McCain, for God’s sake.) There could have been no less imaginative solution to the “problem” of a lack of conservative ideas in the NYT. It’s as if the Yankees had replaced Joe Torre with the exhumed corpse of Billy Martin.
Put another way, Kristol is a man with many commitments. One might expect a columnist with competing interests to put out a less impressive product as a result, and of course that’s what happens. Kristol is a weak writer to begin with, but his Times pieces have been thin gruel indeed; wan and almost completely bereft of new ideas. They read like retreads of his TV talking points and Standard columns, which of course they are. That is, when he even bothers to craft an argument at all — Monday’s piece, which Ronit linked to, is a complete and utter joke. It’s stream-of-consciousness gibberish that reads like a bad Ann Althouse post.
True or false — that paragraph was written by a high school junior for a civics paper? I don’t know. It reads like it.
As for McCain’s op-ed piece, it certainly should not have been published as is. Editors gut the shit out of op-ed pieces all the time, even ones that have been written with the intention of being published (which I think you can argue that McCain’s never was). Even if you concede that running Obama’s piece obligates the Times to give McCain a platform to respond, which I don’t, the McCain piece didn’t clear even a very low bar (we’ll call it the Kristol Plateau) for accuracy and style. It just wasn’t fit for publication by any reasonable standard, and ideology had nothing to do with that.
July 29th, 2008 at 11:35 am
Still, the exhumed corpse of Billy Martin would probably write better.
July 29th, 2008 at 1:52 pm
Why is it, as per Jeff S in #46, that so many on the left are so eager to turn the discussion away from the subject at hand to vent at the president and his team?
July 29th, 2008 at 2:06 pm
Amazing, Rory in #45 & Jeff S in #43.
Do you even read what I’ve written? I called W’s Administration a disappointment and you address me as if I’m an apologist for the man. Seems you guys are so eager to attack that you’ll misrepresent your target as you both repeatedly misrepresent the president’s record in your comments.
Defending the indefensible? Give me a break. Start reading some non-leftist news sources and you’ll see multiples defense of any of the issues on which you attack and/or misrepresent the president.
And let me repeat, I called his Administration a disappointment, hardly a ringing endorsement. I might find myself defending it less if its adversaries had been more honest and less vitriolic in their criticisms.
July 29th, 2008 at 2:07 pm
I believe it was YOU who asked “Why do so many on the left find it necessary to call our defenses of the administration reflexive and the presidency a disaster?” So basically, you are now denigrating people who simply chose to respond to your own question. Nice.
In any event, about three or four very lengthy, well-articulated, basically unrebutted posts above already trounced your initial argument on “the topic at hand”; should we just keep reposting a winning argument over and over?
July 29th, 2008 at 2:15 pm
Um, Jeff Z, check the thread. Observe that my comment in #42 in which you quote in #51 is a response to your comment in #41. You’re the one who introduced the subject of the “disastrous presidency.” I even borrowed your language in my rebuttal.
Hence, my point in #49 on the eagerness of those on the left to turn away the discussion from the subject at hand.
As to your claim that there were *three or four very lengthy, well-articulated, basically unrebutted posts above already trounced [my] initial argument,* well, I beg to differ. I did rebut them.
If you do feel yourself the winner, why do you feel the need then to keep on commenting?
July 29th, 2008 at 2:54 pm
Dan,
While you called it a “disappointment” (so was the Red Sox winning last year), you also claimed it wasn’t a disaster and had less abuses of power than Clinton. THAT is what I responded to. Please don’t mischaracterize me when accusing me of mischaracterizing you!
I’d be curious what you call “leftist” and “non-leftist”. I’m sure we’d disagree–in fact, I’m sure I’d find yours to be a somewhat paranoid list considering how you’ve argued about bias so far. It doesn’t take a left-wing source to note the list–as you say, even many conservatives have complained about these issues. Please engage my actual points (the laundry list of major, even catastrophic, failures under Bush’s watch) instead of trying to negate my ability to make an argument. Or don’t engage. I don’t really care, but I’d prefer not to be accused of mischaracterizing or misleading when I haven’t been.
What, exactly, was dishonest in my list of errors? Which were less abusive than anything Clinton did in his presidency? And please add the politicization of NASA and the EPA to the list, btw.
July 29th, 2008 at 3:35 pm
rory: surely by now you should understand that, for some people (eg: Dan Blatt, David Kane) anything that is not entirely supportive of everything George Bush has ever done is anti-American left-wing lunacy?
July 29th, 2008 at 3:48 pm
Rory,
Your list of grievances (from comment #45) can certainly be addressed. Some of them are real problems, and some of those are real problems reasonably blamed on the Bush adminstration.
“1. Misled the country into war in Iraq.”
While I believe that in hindsight and with the discovery that the Iraqui WMD program was essentially non-existent, the invasion of Iraq was a big mistake, at the time a reasonable case for it could be made. It was clear there was a great deal of uncertainty about Iraq’s WMD programs, but most countries believed they were real (an impression fostered by - or at least not adequately refuted by - Iraq, apparently for deterrence purposes). We had just experienced a catastrophic attack by Al-Quaeda, and it was perfectly reasonable to be worried that Iraq could funnel some of its technology to Al-Quaeda (in an “the-enemy-of-enemy-is-my-friend” sort of way.) It was possible to make a judgment that the risk of this made the costs of war and occupation “worthwhile.” Of course, as it turned out, there were essentially no WMD’s, and the post-war handling of Iraq was very poorly planned and executed.
“-Has failed to adequately build Afghanistan into a functioning state after invading”
I suppose this is true so far, but no one has ever been able to do this (e.g. Britain, USSR, the Taliban, etc.), so I don’t think its fair to lay this entirely at the feet of the Bush administration. Also, after the Taliban were originally driven from Kabul, there was - in the U.S. at least - a general consensus that the invasion had been a good idea.
“-Oversaw KATRINA
-Did I mention KATRINA!!!!!!!!!!”
The responses to Katrina disaster were (and to a large extent still are, I think) very poor, particularly in the short term. Much of this can be blamed on the Bush administation FEMA, which one would have thought would have been more prepared. (Although some of the problems also stemmed from failures at the state and local levels.) However, “the cause” of the problems in New Orleans, the levee failure, can’t fairly be blamed on the Bush administration. It was an long-standing problem going back many years
“-Politicized the hiring of civil servants”
A very bad problem clearly tolerated and encouraged by the Bush administration, which hopefully will not be copied by future administrations.
“-has run a gargantuan deficit while overseeing an increase in federal spending”
The Bush administation is obviously somewhat responsible for this. However, Congress (largely a Republican congress, of course) also played a large role, as do “the American people,” who like getting things from the gov’t without being taxed to pay for it.
“-provided absolutely no framework for energy independence during the eight years when it seemed most critical”
“Energy independence,” in my view, is a meaningless term. However, an improved energy policy is clearly needed. Both parties and the administration (and to a certain extent their supporters who oppose various proposals to improve our policies) should be blamed for the gridlock we have experienced in this area. Its worth noting of course, that “energy policy” has been a troubled area going back as far as the Nixon administration.
“-Was in power when multiple states violated the NPT”
Not good, and Bush’s policies obviously haven’t prevented the violations. But I don’t think its the U.S.’s fault (or Bush’s fault) that N. Korea, India and Pakistan have developed nukes. Do you think we could have done something different?
“okayed torture in US policy”
I’m in total agreement with you on this one. This is, in some ways, the most horrifying thing the adminstration has done.”
July 29th, 2008 at 3:57 pm
Whitney, I think that is a very fair, balanced, and honest assesment from someone who could hardly be called a crazed liberal, or whatever the term dujour is.
By the way, Dan, I will just note that comment 41 was not “mine,” and with that bow out of the he-said-she-said of who bashed who’s position first …
July 29th, 2008 at 4:01 pm
Rory, I simply do not have time to address each of your points, especially given that they have little to do with the point of this post. I mean, I have my own blog to deal with as well as my real world responsibilities, including my dissertation.
You offer a list of grieveances but fail to show the nature of the abuses you allege (offering only a laundry list as you yourself put it), but now ask me to detail my disagreements. I mean, you already have determined how you will react to my responses, you claiming to find mine paranoid.
To suggest that his abuses are worse than Clinton’s are to limit your understanding of the scandals of that era to Paula Jones when that was one of my many.
The president has blundered badly on a number of issues. I’ve already said as much. How many times do I have to repeat myself to get you to acknowledge that? I mean, I call the president a disappointment and yet Ronit claims that for some people (including yours truly) “anything that is not entirely supportive of everything George Bush has ever done is anti-American left-wing lunacy.” I never said that, never even hinted at that.
Amazing what you guys project onto conservatives.
This is not the first time I’ve heard the argument that we define as unpatriotic or left-wing lunacy any criticism of W. Amazing. They don’t find their justification in the words of conservatives but in their own minds.
On a related point. Jeff Z, I just checked. Jeff S, not you, did pen comment 41. My point remains. I did not bring up the topic of conservatives reflexively defending this presidency.
July 29th, 2008 at 5:06 pm
Whitney,
fair enough. I was mostly responding with incredulousness, hence the laundry list instead of a nuanced description. While I feel more blame can be hoisted on Bush for many of these issue (see: his politicizing and gutting of FEMA’s staff as one of the reasons Katrina was so particularly devastating), as Dan points out, that isn’t really the point of this whole back and forth.
Dan, I said your definition of leftist sources would seem paranoid to me because you’ve accused the NY Times and your fellow ‘85 eph of having shown bias where I saw very little. Your views on issues may/may not be paranoid. I do find conservative complaints about the liberal bias of the media to be pretty paranoid considering the rise of Fox, conservative talk radio, and the shrinking readership of “liberal” old-time media sources. I’m thoroughly unconvinced of a liberal bias, especially in light of how well McCain has played and manipulated the media.
I know of the Clinton era scandals and accusations. None of them included the abuse of power that okaying torture and denying habeas corpus are. None include politicizing hiring like Bush actively did in many areas of the administration. None include any end result nearly as disastrous as the mismanagement of FEMA that directly led to the embarrassing response to Katrina. None included Clinton proclaiming a “hell of a job” when the correct term was “what the hell have you done with this job?”
but, as Whitney and you note, that’s neither here nor there in the context of this original post. So while we’ll continue to disagree, it is indeed a small point in this context. So I won’t go into more detail about how Bush is at fault for each of those failings (Whitney: while you’re right that the public and congress deserve much blame, sharing blame with others does not mean Bush doesn’t deserve a significant share as well).
In short, I hope you understand why, with my understanding of what Bush has and has not done in his 8 years, I deem the term “disappointment” to be too light a description of Bush’s tenure.
It is amazing, again, that you use guilt by association (what ronit says I must agree with) when responded to my posts. While I’ve been quite antagonistic to your point of view, I’ve tried to avoid generalizations myself.
July 29th, 2008 at 5:30 pm
Whitney:
Great post…very informative…and a good reminder of which mud-pies shouldn’t be flung so forcefully.
JG:
I can’t imagine how difficult fact-checking must be these days. One must need fact-checkers for the fact-checkers. And so many facts that seem established at one point, we then find out were lies. And then there are the omissions…and the ’stretching’ of the truth…
Admittedly (per your last paragraph), I have learned much more about all this from EB. ;-)
July 29th, 2008 at 9:04 pm
Dan -
I am passionate in my beliefs. And I stand by the characterization of W’s term in the WH as disasterous for the US - well beyond a disappointment.
So, while intemperate, I belive that the loyal (and angry) opposition has done a far better job of documenting the basis for using the term disasterous to describe W’s tenure than you have for ascribing any equivalency between W’s track record and any real or imagined abuses under WJC.
I am still waiting for any facts that would support equating abuses under WJC admin with what we know about W’s track record. Or for that matter any specific rebuttal to the (incomplete) list of misdeeds provided previously.
Yes, I have been unkind. But state sanctioned torture is indefensible. Or perhaps you prefer “enhanced interrogation techniques?”
Does it bother you that our techniques were borrowed from the Gestapo and the Communist Chinese? Does it bother you that these techniques were authorized at the cabinet level in W’s admin (at a minimum)?
At what point does W’s track record move beyond disappointing? What would it take exactly? Would allowing wounded soldiers to lie in their own waste in rat infested wards at Walter Reed qualify? Would providing indaequate psychiatric care post (repeated) deployments count? Or is the most serious offense imaginable to lie about consensual extramarital sex in the WH?
The tone is harsh. But the stakes are high. And moral equivalency should not be drawn lightly between torture and perjury.
July 29th, 2008 at 9:16 pm
Rory–
I made the comment about leftist sources because I find that all too often people who define the Bush Administration as disastrous often have only seen one side of the story.
Just look, for example, at how you address Katrina. Yep, FEMA did fumble the issue, but to lay the entire blame on Bush is to miss two things; (1) the magnitude of the disaster and (2) the ineptitude of local authorities who are responsible for responding to disasters. Left-wing sources frequently ignore those two aspects. This is not to excuse the federal government, but to see the Administration’s mistakes there in context.
Amazing that you assume I’m paranoid. I laughed when I read it and am laughing now. Once again, you just seem to want to define conservatives by this image from your imagination.
I mean, I have no clue why you find it paranoid when conservatives complain about the liberal bias on the media. There may be something to fault in our attitude toward the MSM, but it’s certainly not paranoia. You may a good point about the rise of Fox and conservative talk radio, but neither would have found a beachhead were it not for the liberal media bias. If the media treated conservatives evenhandedly, Rush Limbaugh’s audience would dry up in a minute.
I will not get into your further misrepresentations of the Administration. We will have to agree to disagree on the bias my classmate showed. I would like to believe that David was writing an honest rejection, especially given everything I know about the man.
I will make a point I made in a previous comment. Now, I kind of wish I had held back on the piece and had e-mailed David directly instead and asked him why he did it. I read his e-mail (several times in fact) and it just didn’t make sense. Every conservative with whom I have spoken (or otherwise communicated) about McCain’s piece agreed it was a good essay, well argued and reasonable in light of the Obama Op-Ed to which he was responding. Yet, those weighing in here didn’t much care for it. Was that your political leanings speaking or dispassionate intellectual analysis?
Perhaps, we should run it by someone with a centrist reputation.
Finally, as to you comment about guilt by association, I have no clue what you mean by that accusation. Where do I used it? I see my critics (on this thread) using such a tactic to tar me as a reflexive defender of all things Bush and antagonist of anything “not entirely supportive” of him.
July 29th, 2008 at 9:28 pm
Jeff S– Caught you comment (#60) only after I had posted mine (#61).
You ask for facts “facts that would support equating abuses under WJC admin with what we know about W’s track record. Or for that matter any specific rebuttal to the (incomplete) list of misdeeds provided previously.”
Look, all your ideological allies gave you (on this thread at least) was a mere expansion of liberal talking points. If I had the time, I could address each one, agreeing with you on a few, showing how off you are on others, but I don’t think it would make much difference.
As to WJC, to think that the only crime of his term was his dishonesty about consensual extramarital sex is to miss the number of indictments and convictions that took place during the eight years that Democrat was in power.
The misrepresentations of the Administration’s record on what its critics call “torture” is the most glaring. And no, Jeff, the opposition has not done a better job of documenting the term disastrous.
All that said, why is it so many on the left feel so compelled to come out and bash Bush in the thread to a post where we don’t even mention the incumbent Republican president? What is the nature of this obsession with W?
July 29th, 2008 at 9:58 pm
Even I, a dinosaur, read this extremely long post and heated comment as, at best, much ado. I beg the question on ‘about nothing’ in favor of comparing this ado with with a comment from Broadbent recently under another thread. He expressed his heartfelt wish in regards to what a blog should be:
“We need a drawing room for men only. A room where men rant and spar and remain irreverent. A room where cigars are common and spittoons aplenty. A room where words do not incite the boredom of egalitarian uniformity.
“”Perhaps such a blog room would grant heated debates on restive subjects that would raise the bar of our elitist sensibilities.
“I trust such a blog would never concede to the insensibilities of our modest audience. I wish we could have such a blogsite, where crusades can be resurrected and our men can form Houses where we could gather our forces and rout our adversaries.
“Ah,yes, but where are our men? Males yes, but where are the men? It appears that shadows of men prevail upon our dimlit social networks.
“Society today does not tolerate the provenance of men. Our Amazonian infrastructure demands obeisance to feminine principles.
“Nowadays each tends to his own. The only common ground we hold is the internet. We live our lives through it. It is to the printing press that preceded the reformation. To reform and possess the basis for that reform requires a medium that will allow for the further advancement of our understandings.”
The old adage holds - ‘be careful what you wish for’.
July 29th, 2008 at 10:00 pm
Oh dan,
Just when I had tried to offer an olive branch…
You continue to mischaracterize things. I never negated the flaws of local government in response to Katrina (as you said, I never got into much depth). That, however, in no way negates the ABYSMAL job the federal government does. Again, just because more than just the federal government is at fault does not mean that the federal government did not do an absolutely horrendous job. This is not a zero-sum game. New Orleans’ government did a terrible job, but that in no way excuses the pathetic display by FEMA and Bush standing behind FEMA’s efforts.
Nice that you laugh at a sentence–yet you keep responding to it over and over again. The idea that Limbaugh’s audience is simply waiting for an objective centrist view (as though the center is “objective” as compared to the left or the right…) is laughable on its face.
You’ve assumed everyone here calling the McCain piece is a liberal. I don’t know that to be true. Yet you make that assumption–I wonder why.
As for guilt by association–read through MY responses and point out where I paint “conservatives” with a wide brush, yet in a response directed at me (post 57) you say “Amazing what you guys project onto conservatives.” I projected nothing on conservatives (I challenge you to find such a projection in any of my posts on this thread). You, however, have projected onto me. tsk tsk. In addition, you’ve projected onto me as well the claim that Clinton’s only “crime” was his dishonesty re: Monica Lewinsky. Again, you’ve failed to prove that claim (in fact, I’ve stated otherwise). Are you not reading what I write? Do you just assume you know what I think? Which is it?
As for your point on torture…are you serious? Our misrepresentations? What, exactly, have we misrepresented.
This will mark the third or fourth time I’ve asked for clarifications from you. It is fair enough to claim you have other things to do—but that seems highly doubtful considering how much time you’ve been able to invest in this thread without answering those questions.
July 29th, 2008 at 10:28 pm
It’s sad, really, that nowadays when you scratch a “conservative” you invariably discover a torture fan.
July 30th, 2008 at 12:07 am
We are left with unsupported - at any level of detail - accusations of mischaracterization perpetrated by moi.
I would submit that we do not yet have the complete public record on W et al’s misdeeds over the last seven plus years re: abuses of power. That is the major mischaracterization that currently shapes this discussion.
Given the expiration of the independent counsel statute prior to W’s admin - it would seem that W’s cronies benefitted from a change in the rules regarding how allegations of wrong doing are dealt with. Not to mention a Congress controlled by W’s own party and one that provided no oversight of the executive branch (not that the executive branch is cooperating now mind you). Under WJC we did get days of hearings on the WH christmas card list courtesy of Dan Burton.
So WJC had at least one house of congress (the house - easier for majority to control agenda and strong arm minority than senate) controlled by an aggressive and hostile opposition for six years. W had a free ride for six years given marginal split in Senate and own party control of house. So my observation would be that Congress is playing some long overdue catchup in its oversight role of this admin and is being stonewalled in an unprecedented way to boot. Too early to rule these miscreants as second leaguers in the indictment rankings in my opinion.
W also had the advantage of the shrewd accumulation of executive power during a time of (never ending) war. Classified info and invocations of national security shield much of what they have been up to from congressional, media or independent watchdog scrutiny. I recall under W a WH refusal to grant DOJ IG classification to investigate possible abuses as a low point reminiscent of Watergate coverup. Also recall under W that a ranking member of senate intel committee pathetically wrote a note to himself to place in his safe regarding objections to warrantless wiretapping b/c the program was top secret and he could not lawfully disclose this abuse. I also recall under W that the entire top leadership of DOJ threatened to resign en mass unless changes were made to an illegal surveillance program.
In contrast, WJC had to deal with an openly hostile Louis Freeh at FBI and and independent minded Janet Reno (despite the heavy breathing on the right) who were both instrumental in appointing independent counsels to investigate WJC and his cronies. Needless to say, Abu Gonzales had as much independence from WH as he does recall of events at DOJ under his watch.
And this leads me to the contrast that demonstrates the point that all of us horribly biased and mean left wingers have been trying to make. The real contrast in indictments of Admin members under WJC and W is the fact that WJC never i) was able to or ii) thought to install partisan hacks throughout the DOJ (including in non-political positions). The DOJ under W has been thoroughly politicized. Do you remember Sheldon Whitehouse’s graphic regarding points of contact between the WH and DOJ during Attorney firing hearings under WJC and W (probably not - we seem to travel in different circles you and I)? The contrast could not be clearer. W turned the DOJ into a wholly owned subsidiary of the RNC and WH political shop. There is no parallel in WJC’s admin.
The results under W speak for themselves: firings of US attorney’s for failing to aggresively pursue partisan investigations; hirings and promotion of hacks; penalize and fire independent minded staff. Lesbians, democrats, minority voting rights experts, and the independent administration of justice were tossed aside at DOJ under W. God, guns and Republicans were in.
So, long winded way of saying I think your comparison misses the mark. And, I would restate that I don’t see anything that rivals the extent or severity of abuses in W’s admin within WJC’s admin.
I am still waiting for specifics. Your assertion had no factual support - and I thought it important to point out the limitations of your comparison.
I don’t believe Al Gore ever traveled the country repeating intelligence that had already been debunked in an effort to get us to bomb Serbia under WJC. I don’t recollect Bill Cohen authorizing torture or secret renditions under WJC. And I don’t recollect the ACLU working in cohoots with the WH political office to purge the ranks of DOJ of Federalist Society members under WJC.
I do recollect that HRC had secret meeting on healthcare that were reminiscent of Darth Cheney’s energy task force. Although I am virtually certain that pharma was not in the room like big oil was with Dick. But that is plausible comparison between WJC and W admins - but it is a point that no one had previously used. And it (HRC’s affinity for secrecy) is one reason I did not support her in the primary.
So fire away. I am all for education - no matter how painful and eye opening.
July 30th, 2008 at 4:00 am
Rory, #64, how much time I’ve devoted to this? Not much. I’m enjoying this. It reminds me of conversations I had at Williams. And note that when I say “you guys” I mean those who paint with such a broad brush such as those who assumed we conservatives reflexively defend W.
Please note, I’m responding to at least 4 commenters taking issue with me. Had I had more time I would be more specific.
As to Bush & FEMA, will you at least give the guy credit for learning from his mistake? FEMA was universally praised for its efforts in response to the recent floods in the Midwest. W blundered in Katrina, then fixed theings at FEMA. The real question is, would FEMA under any other president have responded any more swiftly? It had been years since our nation had faced a disaster of this magnitude.
The main reason I don’t give clarifications is threefold: (1) it takes too much time; (2) it’s not the point of the post and (3) I doubt it’ll make any difference. Most of you are convinced that W (as one of you put it) has been a “disastrous” president. So, no matter how many facts I marshal in his defense, it won’t make much of a difference to those who have long since made up their mind about the man. I’ve tried it on my blog and it just doesn’t work. How many times can I show that Joe Wilson lied about his mission to Niger and what the Administration knew (about that mission) yet his defenders still see him as a saint?
Amazing, ronit #65, that you would accuse conservatives of being torture fans. You should take the time to read what some conservatives have written on that issue. Amazing. It seems all too many on the left (note, I say all too many, not all) make such claims about us. If you’d bothered to read even the so-called “torture memos,” you’d find that even their authors are anything but fans.
And Jeff S., you do get at one of the Administration’s flaws. While you’re wrong about the firings of US attorneys, you are right about the hiring of hacks. It’s one of Bush’s biggest flaws that he hired a crony for Attorney General and bypassed some very smart conservative lawyers for his Justice Department. At least since 2005, conservatives have been faulting the Justice Department for its lack of topnotch jurists and its employees lacks of philosophic rigor (for lack of better term) in their work.
You can bloviate all you want by your my failure to offer specifics. You’re the one who shifted the thread to W. Recall, I posted on the New York Times and John McCain. Your name-calling shows exactly why it would be fruitless for me to provide specifics. If someone calls the Vice President Darth in such an open forum, he’s unlikely to be convinced that the President is a decent man who made a number of serious blunders.
The record of his Administration will put W somewhere in the middle of US Presidents. It won’t convince some of the partisans in this thread, but I do recall the harsh judgment many of my classmates (and professors) leveled against Reagan when he served. And now many of their ideological confreres have reached a different conclusion about the man and his service. Even a few of those classmates who once denigrated the Gipper.
When Iraq celebrates the tenth anniversary of its democracy and invites former President Bush to the festivities in Baghdad, we’ll see a number of talking heads wonder at his success.
July 30th, 2008 at 10:01 am
Dan,
I don’t think it will happen, but when, and if, W is invited to Baghdad to celebrate his ,ahem, victorious success, I suppose many of us will shake our heads, while zipping our lips. After all, it wouldn’t be the first time a past president will have been undeservedly glorified.
But in all honesty, the picture you paint, and the stance you claim as that of the Republican party, has very little semblance to how you have been represented by this administration. Your party has been hijacked. And rather than spend so much effort defending the actions of the “disastrous” (sorry, but I do feel this is an apt description) representation you have had, we would all be better served, if instead, you would work on trying to return it to something that, at least partly represents you, and the views, you so passionately embrace.
Tough job…but if all goes as I hope, the conservatives may have a bit of a sabbatical soon…which will give you the time you need to rally the troops and redefine your mission. :-)
July 30th, 2008 at 10:19 am
Dan: I read some of the “torture memos” authored by John Yoo. I thought they were the most execrable and loathsome documents authored by any United States government official since the end of WW2.
In my opinion, anyone who endorses such a policy places themselves outside the pale of decent politics. So forgive me if I seem uncharitable, but I have no desire to try to be “fair and balanced” with war criminals.
July 30th, 2008 at 10:53 am
Agreed on we are talking past each other. Use of Darth was meant as humor, I am sorry if the tongue in my cheek offended your sensibilities.
You continue to make assertions without supporting information (a little more detail in the last post, however). My post above was meant to provide an institutional analysis of why your prior assertion was off the mark. Maybe not Burnsian or Beschlossian in quality - but not bad for an amateur extemporaneous rebuttal that actually references facts and real events - as opposed to simply asserting that your facts are wrong. You say that I am wrong - but no specifics. No factual errors or specific corrections provided.
I asked a rhetorical question regarding the reflexive (e.g. unthinking) defense of W. I think a lack of specifics on your part reinforces the appropriateness of that label.
You engaged around my question. I responded to your rejection of disasterous, as did others. Now you would like to excuse yourself from the discussion with a lovely vision of the future. I am only surprised you did not add a reference to several dozen dark eyed virgins to the paradise you describe.
I think your vision - while wonderful - is not reality based, ignores more than a century of western experience in the region and the geopolitcs of mesopotamia and also is completely divorced from our domestic political reality. The last comment is not dependent upon an Obama victory. Do you think Republicans will continue to run for office with an unpopular war in Iraq around their necks? Clearly, you are someone who believes the Iraq adventure was not a mistake - even though every rationale for the war has been abandoned successively for a new rationale, the costs have been far higher than anyone imagined and the benefits far less. And as a delightful side effect we have created a lovely power vacuum for the Iranians. I think your vision has the same level of rigor as Kristol’s analysis pr pre-invasion Iraq and the events that would unfold (full circle - I got us back to the NYT editorial page at last). And we know how prescient Kristol has been on that count.
I think if you are going to refute a charge - it is incumbent upon you to use facts rather than assert that those who disagree with you are wrong and you simply lack the time to support your position. I and others have supported are assertions with facts and you respond by saying we are wrong or misunderestimated W.
Your other defense has been that you called W disappointing (apparently b/c W did not appoint more conservative jurists/ lawyers. Or is that as unfair to you as your assertion that I said the only thing WJC did wrong was to lie about consensual extramarital sex?). But using “disappointing” is not a magic “I don’t have to explain myself” card when you reject the fact based assertions of others.
So lets try again. W admin milistones with evaluation of performance:
1) Katrina - literally the definition of disasterous dont you think? The use of the “no one could have foreseen” defense - erroneously, of course.
2) Tax breaks - not disasterous if you are in the top 5% or so. Fiscally they have been unaffordable and wreckless at best for our nation’s finances.
3) Conservative jurists. Not disasterous, especially if you are a conservative.
4) Fighting the wrong war in the wrong country incompetently* for years. I would use disasterous. What say you? Or do you subscribe to Iraq as the Central Front of GWOT? *Note: incompetence defined as inadequate troops, disbanding Iraq military, appointing political hacks (that does seem to be a recurring problem) to key posts and developing no plan for post war occupation and reconstruction in advance of invasion.
5) Fighting the right war in the right country with inadequate resources for years. I would say more than disappointing. Foolish. Dangerous. Reckless. Negligent. Possibly disasterous.
6) Politicization of DOJ and scientific basis for rule making at EPA/NASA/FDA. Corrosive. Damaging. Possibly disasterous if you have a lung ailment or have children. Certainly more than disappointing. Certainly disasterous from the standpoint of any evaluation of stewardship of the public trust and core public institutions or values.
7) Provisions for the healthcare and psychiatric needs of our troops. Disasterous. Well documented prevalence of PTSD, psychoses, violence and suicide and an under-resourced VA/Army Dept. Post war admission that VA did not plan for Iraq troop needs. Potentially disasterous if you or a loved one has served. Can you imagine the uproad of HRC was president and her admin did same?
8) Torture. Disasterous for our ability to deploy soft power and win the GWOT (without contesting that particular flawed construct). Your hero the Gipper (and his cold war colleagues) used soft power - and the deterrence of massive nuclear retaliation - to halt the reds and eventually win the cold war. We always had a reserve of moral authority and appeal to the people of the Soviet block that was unblunted by Soviet propoganda. So how are we doing on this front in the GWOT? I think we have suffered disasterous reverses to the American brand and our soft power via Gitmo, Abu Graib (sp?), water boarding, etc. Disasterous to a nation of laws. Disasterous to human rights. Disasterous to our standing in the world. Disasterous to our troops in the field who may be captured by the enemy in future conflicts.
9) North Korea. Sneering rejection by W et al of WJC plan to end NK’s nuclear program before a bomb created. Then waited five plus years to engage NK. Now have same WJC policy in place - only difference is NK has 3+ bombs. Disasterous for non proliferation. Disasterous for Japanese and SK potentially.
This blog may not be the venue to debate the place of state sponsored torture in America. And the rhetoric may be overheated. But I do not believe that reasonable men (and women) can reasonably disagree about an issue like torture.
This discussion began around the need to engage and listen to opponents views and whether those views require some threshold level of rigor. I am more closed minded than I should be. But I and others of my persuasion have at least marshalled facts and referred actual events to support our assertions. Those who disagree with us have had a less grounded and fact based approach, to be charitable.
Dan - this has been a waste of time. But not entirely for the reasons you suggest.
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