Mon 8 Sep 2008

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17 Responses to “ The Williams Medal ”

Comments:

1. PTC says:
   September 8th, 2008 at 8:40 am

   Dave- Why don’t you post the justifications for the nominations you made? Is there a format for the Nomination? Don’t you need to give reasons along with your nomination if the persons work is not well known?

   The interview from Bunge appears to be old. I would venture to guess, he might have something different to say about things now… it would be interesting to get his current perspective, if it has changed over the years.

2. Ronit says:
   September 8th, 2008 at 9:08 am

   Sadly, David, I doubt that anyone serving in Iraq is keeping your daughters safe at night.

3. PTC says:
   September 8th, 2008 at 9:24 am

   Ronit- True. The sons and daughters argument is irrational.

   Still, it would be nice if David stopped going on about this without giving the specific job accomplishments and relevant fitness reports of Cooke and Jones. The military does not hand out awards and recognition without justification, and neither should Williams. It is rather odd that David has this position for the award, but shows no deference to the acceptance of Veterans. He once argued with me that a person with the Navy Cross should be shown little or no deference in the application process at Williams. It is an odd rational.

   I am not saying that these two service members do not deserve this recognition. David simply has not made his case well.

4. David says:
   September 8th, 2008 at 9:50 am

   Where to start?

   1) Of course I do not have access to their “fitness reports.” Nor do I have access to their medical records. Those documents are not public.

   2) Being admitted to Williams and being awarded a Bicentennial Medal are two different things with different standards. That should be obvious enough.

   3) Read more about Jones here (pdf). She is obviously neither a General nor a winner of a Silver Star. I just think that, if Del Valle deserves a medal, then so does Jones. Helping combat veterans is as important a “field” as slam poetry and Jones has done as much in her field as Del Valle has done in hers.

   4) Cooke was selected early to be a major. This means (corrections welcome) that he was in the top 5% of all Marine Corps captains. That sure strikes me a distinguished achievement in his field of endeavor.

   5) There is no format for the nomination. You just write to the alumni office, providing whatever reasons you like.

   6) Bunge gave a great talk at reunion. See here for the video.

5. Rory says:
   September 8th, 2008 at 10:03 am

   Jesus, David, no. While the importance of the field is a nice line, it’s irrelevant–the medal is for achievement in the field, not the value of the field itself. Jones’ field may be more valuable (and one could enter a debate on that, but we don’t need to) but her accomplishments are what exactly…? She’s in her field and doing good work. Meanwhile, Mayda’s a national champion, a recorded artist (rare in her field, btw), WAS ON BROADWAY (one of the pioneers) and was on HBO (again, a pioneer).

   Just admit it, you don’t know anything about Mayda Del Valle and her field, do you? And when we explain it to you, you don’t retain much memory of that, do you?

6. Dick Swart says:
   September 8th, 2008 at 10:38 am

   Why daughters were safe in their beds in the Cold War:

   Swart, RE
   US Army May 1957 - May 1959
   Hq and Hq Btry, 2nd Btn, 16th Arty, 4th Armd Div

   Ft Hood, TX May 1957 - Oct 1958
   Successfully completed Basic Training
   Graduate, Intermediate Speed Radio Operator School
   Promoted to PFC

   Schwabisch Gmund, West Germany Nov 1957 - May 1959
   Clerk, Message Center
   Educational Ass’t
   Promoted to Spec 4th Class
   Awarded Good Conduct Ribbon

   US Army Reserve Duty, Ft Dix, NJ July 1960
   Induction Test Specialist

   Honorable Discharge 1964

7. PTC says:
   September 8th, 2008 at 10:45 am

   The public has access to certain military service information without the veteran’s authorization (or that of the next-of-kin of deceased veterans). Examples of information which may be available from Official Military Personnel Files without an unwarranted invasion of privacy include:

   Name
   Service Number
   Rank
   Dates of Service
   Awards and decorations
   City/town and state of last known address including date of the address

   Awards may cover it. Normally, if someone has done something exceptional in the military, they get recognized for it with awards. If not, their performance will most certainly be in their Fitness Reports. You could ask them to give you some of their Fitness Reports to use in submission of the award. It would take no time at all for them to fax or email Fitness Reports to you. If you do not even know what is in their jacket (their job performance), then why on earth would you think they deserve such an award? Bicentennial Medals honor members of the Williams community for distinguished achievement in any field of endeavor. You are asking the College to give awards for job performance without any record of it.

   I take your obvious point on acceptance to the school. It just seems odd to me that you would show such a bias for an award for people in the service, but none for acceptance to the school. I bet the school would look at a candidate who was a veteran differently, because of age and life experience. At any rate, you lack the specifics David.

   Attention to detail.

8. David Kane says:
   September 8th, 2008 at 10:52 am

   I have already explained to you that Bunge was selected early for major. That means (I think, my info could be dated) that he is in the top 5% of Marine Corps captains. Insiders can tell a similar story from the series of positions that Bunge’s has had in the Corps. (Hint: Not all captains get to command a company.)

   The Alumni Office has the full rundown on Bunge’s military record, including awards and whatnot.

   Again, Bunge is not a General and he has not won a Silver Star. There are many Ephs here who think that, until you have done something like that, you have not demonstrated “distinguished achievement.” Those same Ephs argue that Del Valle has.

9. Rory says:
   September 8th, 2008 at 11:04 am

   again, David, you foolishly bring up Del Valle’s name.

   Again, I will repeat, this time in different form. IN HER FIELD, Del Valle is one of the 5-10 most accomplished EASILY. It could be argued she’s the #1 most accomplished, even, though living in philly, i might have to give that award to Ursula Rucker.

   top 10 overall >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> top 5%.

   Please, for the sake of your argument and my sanity, keep Del Valle’s name out of your argument.

10. David Kane says:
    September 8th, 2008 at 11:15 am

    The key issue is the definition of the field, how broadly we want to define things. Del Valle’s award is important because it makes crystal clear that the College is happy to define “field” very narrowly. (This was not certain before.) I think that is fine.

    In other words, if the fields are “entertainment” and “military service” then I am happy to accept for the sake of argument that neither Del Valle nor Cooke deserve to win. Those field are so broad, with so many people in them, that neither Eph has demonstrated distinguished achievement.

    On the other hand, if it is OK to define the fields narrowly (and I think it is), then we would have something like “slam poetry” and “leading a Marine company in combat.” I think that there are, in raw terms, similar numbers of people (100?) making a living doing each of these things, over the last 5 years. In those fields, both Del Valle and Cooke have demonstrated distinguished achievement.

    Cooke is as good as leading Marines as Del Valle is at slam poetry.

    I am happy to award neither (because fields need to be defined broadly). I am happy to award both. (That’s my preference.) I do not like to see Cooke denied.

11. David Kane says:
    September 8th, 2008 at 11:24 am

    And, just for the record, I have been pleased to bring Del Valle’s accomplishments to the attention of Eph Blog readers in the past (here and here). (Not sure if I did that first link.)

    But, at the same time, there is no need for romanticism. Del Valle as one of the “top 10 overall” performance poets? Not if you believe Wikipedia’s listing.

12. current eph says:
    September 8th, 2008 at 11:30 am

    Narrowing the field to “slam poetry” will include thousands of slam poets. Narrowing the field to “leading a marine company in combat” includes maybe 100. According to your figures, both of these ephs are just about in the top 5 of their respective extremely narrowly defined fields (although I would be surprised if there are only 5 marine captains promoted to major). However, De Valle’s field includes 10x more people than Cooke’s. Additionally, I think people would agree that it is likely that De Valle is not only among the top 5 most distinguished current or living slam poets, but among the top 5 of all time (in what is admittedly a relatively new field).

    In other words, De Valle is among the top 0.5% most distinguished people in her field now, and Cooke is in the top 5% most distinguished in his field now. On top of all of that, De Valle is in or around the top 0.5% of people distinguished in her field in the history of her field whereas Cooke is not.

    Cooke is certainly distinguished, but I am sure there are tons of ephs who are similarly distinguished. If we define bicentennial-level achievement as being in the top 5% of one’s narrowly defined field, then there would likely be hundreds of ephs deserving that distinction every year. I imagine there are tons of eph teachers, doctors, and public interest lawyers who could easily be placed in the top 5% of their profession.

13. current eph says:
    September 8th, 2008 at 11:31 am

    I just read your post, David. Even if you include De Valle in the top 25 or top 50 slam poets, that still puts her ahead–in her field–of Cooke, both as a current poet and in the history of slam poetry.

14. Rory says:
    September 8th, 2008 at 11:47 am

    David,

    wikipedia’s listing of performance poets is woefully inadequate, both as a source and just generally as a list.

    Mayda won a national championship. It was a HUGE achievement. Mayda performed on Broadway as a lead. That speaks for itself. Mayda was one of the first poets to perform on HBO’s series of slam poetry. that’s a huge achievement.

    wikipedia’s list? lol. all that proved is that I know a lot more about slam poetry than you. She’s one of the stars of slam poetry. just stop.

15. PTC says:
    September 8th, 2008 at 12:01 pm

    Dave- Early select for 0-4 is great…

    Isn’t there an 0-6 out Eph in the Navy? Has he made Admiral? Why wasn’t his name floated?

    Making 0-4 is pretty much a given in this current climate, if you do your job and keep your record clean. That is a pay grade where you have a lot of numbers selected over very few but it gives a screwed statistic, because a lot of people get out at 0-3. In other words, you may have 5 out of a hundred selected early for Major, but out of that 100, 50 or more may be leaving the service. The higher pay grades are much more of an indicator, because people in those pay grades have the time in that make it a sure career promotion. In other words, early select for 0-6 would be much more of an indicator, because people are in for the duration and for a career if they have made 0-5.

    I am not taking anything away from Major Cook. He seems to be loving his job, and doing well. I am pointing out the reality of early select for 0-4. Something to think about.

    Again- why not look at the 0-6? It is hard to make 0-6, and shows a record of much more accomplishment in terms of career in our military. As would E-8 or E-9.

16. Dick Swart says:
    September 8th, 2008 at 12:15 pm

    PTC -

    I take it you are unimpressed with my permanent rank of E-4 and its substantial increase in pay! Let me tell you, big guy … back when the mark spent like a buck and there were 4.25 of them to the dollar, I was on easy street strasse!

    I could almost have said ‘Machs nix, take six!’.

17. PTC says:
    September 8th, 2008 at 3:13 pm

    Dick- I am most impressed with your honorable and highly exalted rank. I think it is fantastic you were an enlisted man in our great Army. Dave and his use of statistics is what I was aiming at. Statistically, it is about as hard to make E-6 as it is to make Major. Something to think about. Statistically, it is about as hard to make E-9 as it is to make flag rank.

    It must have been amazing being a part of the free spirited development of the new Germany in the 1950s. Of course, the Euro now crushes the dollar. A bunch of bad paper, all over the place.

    Not that it matters, the powers that be no longer let the fellas out in town to go freewheeling anymore like they did back in the day. So not much enjoyment of the fruits of Mesopotamia.

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