Sat 15 Nov 2008
Major Decisions
Posted by sophmom under Academia, General, Advice to Undergraduates
Posted at 11:40 amAs the mom of an Eph who has not yet decided on a major, I thought the subject might make for a worthwhile discussion.
When first applying to Williams, one of the things my son noticed, was that he didn’t need to declare a major. Since he had no clue as to what to put in that blank space on the application, this was, in his opinion, a plus.
There seem to be people who know from an early age, exactly what they want to do with their lives. He is not one of them. And in his case, the old adage, “the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree” does indeed apply. His parents have spent a lifetime in search of what they want to do when they grow up. Thank goodness all of our endeavors have been fairly interesting, as well as lucrative enough to pay the mortgage.
But he will need to declare eventually, and though he has not asked my counsel, I am trying to prepare myself to be of service should he seek it. There are endless sources for advice on this subject, and in my opinion, EB might as well be one of them.
How many of you are of that ilk who knew from an early age, what their life’s work might be? If not, were you inspired by a professor, or a particularly great class? What kind of guidance did the college provide in your quest?
And the other thing I’d be curious to hear, is how many of you ended up in careers that were closely associated with your majors? It seems more typical, that one hears otherwise. Was that the case for you?
In the hopes of inspiring some levity, I close with the words of Dave Barry. According to Mr. Barry…
“Basically, you learn two kinds of things in college:
1. Things you will need to know in later life (two hours).
2.Things you will not need to know in later life (1,998 hours).”
So, since I am paying the tuition on all 2000 of the hours of which Mr. Barry speaks, I am hoping that your stories will convince me that the subject matter on which you chose to focus those hours, was well worth every penny.
November 15th, 2008 at 12:00 pm
I assume your son wants to grow up to be like me, so I suggest a double major in Econ and Poly Sci. :).
Seriously, it really hardly matters unless he has a very specific interest in a specialized field (for example, wants to get a Phd or something). But for something like law, nothing substantive you learn in any class is likely to impact your life in any material way, so I will have to disagree with Mr. Barry and say the ratio is 2000 to 0. I mean, the analytical skills I learned in econ and the writing and critical reading ability I honed in poly sci were enormously helpful, but I could have attained the same skill set had I, say, majored in Biology and Art History.
What is most important is majoring in something that sparks his interest and engages his intellect. That will provide the best odds that he gets the most out of his education, because it is speaking in class, reading challenging course material, being engaged in papers or problem sets, meeting with profs, etc., that matters, not whatever the substance is underlying the engagement. Also, the odds are that if he enjoys what he is doing, he will get a higher gpa, which, alas, most definitely matters in terms of post-college opportunities.
If you are taking the most pragmatic possible approach, I’d say a physics / astrophysics / math major is a great way to go — everyone from econ grad school, to finance, to consulting, to med school, even law school, appreciate those skills — but they are not for the faint of heart, and I wouldn’t suggest that unless someone is really into those fields.
November 15th, 2008 at 12:36 pm
Beer drinking and chasing broads.
November 15th, 2008 at 12:48 pm
Hmmm, I’d say that I received an A minus in one of those subjects, a C minus in the other. I’ll leave it to the readers to assign those marks …
November 15th, 2008 at 12:52 pm
I thought I’d do X, hated my first semester first year course in it, and started to look around. I ended up choosing something else, one of those broad multi-discipline majors in which Williams seems to excel. It has been good for later life in that I know a medium amount about a wide range of areas (the lack of sciences being my weakness, but even then other, more familiar paths lead me to them). I thought I’d become a professor, but didn’t like the culture and abandoned graduate school, ultimately getting a professional degree instead. I’m not unique; a lot of us followed winding paths.
I’m tempted to say that, unless he wants to become a doctor or to enter some other field that requires a series of certain particular undergraduate courses, it does not matter what major he picks as long as he is deeply interested in it. The skills matter (analytical ability, writing ability, ability to present a position and defend it well, collaborative people skills, ability to be a thoughtful contributor to group endeavors, etc.) but he will pick those up if he is well taught and is following an interest/passion; actual content probably matters much less. My major ultimately had little to do with my profession, but much to do with my life, my interests, and — upon reflection — many choices I’ve made. As a bit of an aside, now in my mid-50s I am seeing quite a few peers go back and pick up work that is much more directly related to their college interests than their interim professions were.
All those distribution requirements at Williams are a blessing in many ways. They help ensure a broader education than students might pick on their own and they often expose students for the first time to interests that become the passions of their lives. Yet, they can also feel distracting and add to the anxiety about choosing a major: so much flitting about for these young butterflies just out of the cocoon who do not want to feel any constriction again so soon after their nascent emergence. If there is anything I have learned, it is that one can keep on learning through a lifetime — and for that wisdom and the foundation that makes it possible for me, I am deeply grateful to Williams.
If your son feels torn or as though he can’t settle into one area, he is not alone. A large number of Williams students double major (I believe triple majoring is no longer allowed), combine a major with a concentration, and/or add certificates in various areas; some seem to do this out of an unwillingness to choose and others as a way to combine a practical foundation with the things that sound upon their heartstring.
Your son’s search and his thoughts about it may be much easier if, instead of thinking about picking a single major, he thinks about how to combine his interests into a package. Looking at the Commencement materials over the years, I’ve had many a warm smile upon seeing such combinations as “physics and studio art,” “computer science and classics,” “chemistry and English,” “contract major: environmental studies,” and “political science and art history.” I like to imagine what these students (as well as their peers who opt for a single, traditional major but have broad interests) bring to the seminar tables, labs, and studios and later to the conference room, marketplace, and office.
And as far as a career goes (paths that need economics or science aside), it doesn’t seem to matter all that much, especially once we face the practicality that many, if not the vast majority of, Williams students will ultimately go on to graduate or professional schools. I see students with all sorts of undergraduate backgrounds going into law, business, and government service, to name a few — and probably to the enjoyment of their future colleagues, who will value their breadth. (Of course, if he does think he may eventually into graduate or professional school in a certain field, whether narrowly or broadly defined, it would not hurt to browse admission catalogues now at this stage in his undergraduate days to see what prerequisites or recommendations he can find, as well as whether there is other helpful information.)
Please remind your son that people nowadays often change jobs and even professions frequently over the course of their working years. It’s getting to be towards time to grow up and to make choices, but that certainly doesn’t mean that he should be hearing the crash of a thousand doors slamming shut because of this one decision.
The best of luck to him. I’ve no doubt that many students are feeling a lot of additional pressure about this and other decisions because of the terrifying economic morass the world has entered. I have a lot of faith in his Williams education — not to make him rich or to make him this or that but to give him the foundations upon which to fashion a good life.
November 15th, 2008 at 1:31 pm
I decided on a major in, quite literally, the last half an hour before the deadline in sophomore spring. It doesn’t matter much. My advice is to major in whatever subject has had, for him, the most interesting professors. That’s really what you’re paying for - the chance to sit down and learn from some great minds. There are subjects at Williams that are, arguably, important and may be relevant to later life, but that don’t have good professors. These are not worth majoring in.
Two things I would recommend not doing, based on my personal experience:
1. Double majoring - it restricts your freedom to explore and is usually a waste of time.
2. Falling in love - ditto.
November 15th, 2008 at 1:49 pm
I can tell Frank has never advised a daughter on selection of a major!
Not that there’s anything wrong with that.
November 15th, 2008 at 2:00 pm
Cynical much, Ronit? (And this comes from one who, I’m guessing, has more reason than you to be!)
November 15th, 2008 at 2:02 pm
Jeff Z gives great advice above. I have nothing to add except that I strongly recommend that everyone in college spend some of time studying language abroad. I recommend an entire year, two semesters, if at all possible. If you can separate them… do one semester abroad, then one or more semesters back in the USA thinking about what you would have liked to known before going and studying it, and then go back abroad, It will make the experience even more intense.
There are not many other times in life when you can acquire a language skill and learn interesting things about culture, art, architecture, people etc. like you can in College. It costs about the same as a normal semester in most colleges, and it is worth it.
Can you think of anything more intriguing? Really?
November 15th, 2008 at 2:39 pm
I’m not a cynic yet, Jeff, but I regretted both soon after graduation. I came away wishing that I had had more time in junior and senior year to take interesting courses in anthropology, history, foreign languages, art history, etc., instead of fulfilling dull major requirements in Econ (my second major). I also wish I had had more time for following Frank’s sage advice above.
November 15th, 2008 at 2:45 pm
I am commenting here at the request of SM and in support of her (and others’) efforts to make EphBlog more of what many of us have always wanted it to be…I may periodically comment on such posts, but still will not be back generally - that ship has sailed. Hi Larry!
When I started at Williams, I knew exactly what I wanted to do/be when I grew up, needless to say I changed my mind later. I was going to be a high school math teacher. That’s not an exciting career to most people, but I was inspired by a woman who taught me calculus and was vice principal of my very catholic and formerly all-male high school (eventually she was the first woman principal). So I set out to be a math major. I thought I’d explore some other things and see what else interested me, and I also took Religion 101 because of course I was used to taking religion classes.
Hah - anyone who has taken Rel 101 at Williams should know that my little catholic-school self was knocked on my butt by Rel 101. It is not like any class I could have expected as a 17/18 year-old. I got my lowest grade of first semester - and of my time at Williams - in that class. But I was challenged by it and inspired/interested enough to try again. So I took a few more religion classes, including a tutorial with Bill Darrow second semester of my freshman year (still don’t know how they let me do that, but I’m glad they did), and eventually decided to add Religion as my second major round about the beginning of Soph year. I did better in those classes as time went on, but they were not my highest grades on average.
At the same time, I was taking several PoliSci, History, and English classes. I was working in the Art History department, so I got to “take” those classes from the back behind the slide projectors. It was a mish-mash of whatever courses and professors caught my attention. But by the end of my second year, math was mostly just proof after proof, and it just wasn’t my thing anymore so I dropped that. But I still took a couple more math classes as a junior and worked as a tutor and TA.
Junior fall when looking at my courses to see what I should take or change and what second major (if any) I might add, I was close to a PoliSci major as it turned out. None of the senior seminars interested me in the slightest, however, so that was out. I liked history but hadn’t paid any attention to the major requirements nor did I have any desire really to try to complete them. What I did notice was that my courses happened to naturally fall into line for a “concentration” (aka minor for those unfamiliar) in African American studies. The courses I had lined up for the rest of the year were perfect for it as well. I actually tried to pull together enough to make it a major, but it was simply too hard to do. I would have had to design some courses on my own for the senior seminar and at that point in my life was not savvy or self-possessed enough to do it, despite my interest. A standard major is about 9 courses, I think I ended up with 8 for PoliSci, 7 for an Afro-Am “major,” and 7 toward the Math major. In case you haven’t noticed by the sheer numbers of courses, many of the things I took overlapped each other in terms of potential majors (especially Af-Am, History, and PoliSci). At other schools where you can minor in things that are also majors, I would have had a half dozen.
So I ended up graduating with a major in Religion and a concentration in Afro-Am. I also had enough time to do lots of activities and clubs. I managed to pull cum laude out by the skin of my teeth (right on the edge) but never won real distinction overall for my grades. My best grades were in Afro-Am and PoliSci, but I stuck with Religion precisely because it challenged me. I also adored the faculty and my fellow majors - all 10 of us I think. I relished the small departments where we all got together for a meal or event. To me, that feeling is exactly what a small liberal arts school is about.
Looking back, sure I wish I had pulled it together enough to do the Afro-Am major instead of just a concentration. But I did enjoy being the funny little white girl pursuing Afro-Am, and relished the look on people’s faces when I would tell them at one of the alumni or trustee events. I am the poster child for why “identity” studies aren’t necessarily about people studying themselves. I am very, very white. In fact, I was for a time the only student in my class pursuing the concentration - ended up there were 2 of us - which was hilarious to a lot of people.
I guess to a larger point about majors - students should follow their interests, regardless of how randomly paired (math-religion, physics and studio art) they may seem. It is also fine to have one major and a mix of other stuff. Your undergrad major at a place like Williams will rarely matter. Unless you are looking to go to med school or to get a PhD it really doesn’t matter at all. You can learn a lot about people and society generally by taking any course. It is not so much about learning facts and figures and dates as about learning to read and write critically and learning to think. You won’t always realize it happening at the time (I didn’t), but looking back it is very valuable. And I think it is also good sometimes to take a couple of required courses that sound hard in order to get to the other side of them. You might find something surprising in them.
When I went back to law school after taking 3 years off, I was a bit intimidated to be going back to school at all, much less something hard like law school. I hadn’t been pre-law, I’d taken years off, I didn’t have a bunch of lawyers in the family, and I didn’t know from birth that I wanted to be a lawyer. But after Williams, it turns out law school wasn’t that bad. I mean, it was still hard, but the volume of reading was what I had at Williams (or a lot less in many cases). Being around other smart people who were at least somewhat competitive academically was normal. From talking to other friends of mine who went from Williams to law school, their experience was similar.
So SM - I’d encourage your son to take whatever he wants through the end of this year, and then look over his courses and see what he ended up taking. Follow naturally from there. If he wants to go off in another direction, in the last two years he can take enough classes to start pretty much brand new in a different major as well. And you can change later - picking a major is not the end of the world. Good luck to him and others making that decision!
November 15th, 2008 at 3:27 pm
Hi, JG. It’s great to see you in the neighborhood again. I hope you’ll visit often. Your thoughts are spot on.
Here’s one more thing to think about, Soph Mom: timing. I seem to remember that we didn’t have to declare a major until sophomore year had ended. I think that decision day may come earlier now (as well it has to for students who plan to be away for the first semester of junior year — the trend of having so many students away during part or all of junior year pushes the internal four-year calendar hard). So the decision date may be coming up faster than you or your son realizes. Of course, he could petition to change his major after declaring it but that’s awkward and an unsettling prospect. And, if he plans to be away at all as a junior, steering towards fulfilling some major requirements in the spring of his sophomore year could become important, especially if the College’s economic difficulties mean in future years that it is harder to fulfill those requirements because there are no visiting professors to take the places of professors who are on sabbatical. So there’s a big basin of cold water thrown in your face: this Thanksgiving or Christmas is the time to think hard about what (tentative) major(s)/concentration(s) to choose. And I think there is a hard deadline early in second semester if he wants to do a contract (self-designed) major.
That said, I still don’t think it is a crucial decision. I cross-posted with several others and was interested to see that our advice was generally of one accord.
November 15th, 2008 at 3:38 pm
JG:
So nice to see your moniker in the ‘comments’ list!
And I knew, from a few things we’ve talked about, that you had an interesting and roundabout path to what you now do.
We have always counseled our son to ’seek his bliss’…to look for that which engages him, and to which he feels he can contribute. I think that is what most of you are saying here…all good advice, BTW, thanks so much.
But I am well aware, that being able to follow your bliss is a blessing, one which few in the world have the luxury of discovering, and pursuing. I try to keep that in mind, for myself, and in my counsel to him…that we have much to learn from all those who have the temperament, and wisdom, to find the joy in whatever work they may be doing.
I suppose it’s something along the lines of finding a way to engage no matter what… to try and love what you do, as well as seek to do what you love.
November 15th, 2008 at 4:52 pm
You will get a lot of comments on things people did that they would have done differently, but you will be very hard pressed to find a person who studied a language abroad who would give up that experience or trade it for any other learning experience in College.
Spain for fall or spring… not a bad time.
November 15th, 2008 at 5:07 pm
PTC:
It is one of his highest priorities. I’d go so far as to say travel is his greatest passion.
And I agree with you that it is life-changing. I spent some of my youth in another country, as well as several years in a row abroad in my 20s. It gave me a whole different outlook, and much more appreciation of my own country.
Kind of hoping to get back to some of that globe-trotting… while I’m still young enough to…trot. So darn expensive though.
November 15th, 2008 at 5:08 pm
I never knew what I wanted to be when I grow up. At 35, I’m finally starting to get a glimmer…… I went in at the end of my sophomore year and said, “well, I’ve taken all these English classes, so I guess that’s my major.” I added a Women’s Studies concentration, because I took a bunch of classes with a gender focus which were fascinating to me. I think a broad liberal arts education will serve you well nearly anywhere, especially if you haven’t known from age 5 what you want to be when you grow up….. It gives you a lot of flexibility. And except for a few pre-professional areas out there, most people don’t care (except for curiosity) what you majored in.
As for me, I worked at a variety of non-profits, all of which were very much learn-on-the-job kinds of things. Now, I’m sort of returning to my English major roots and am just finishing up my first quarter of library school.
And I often think about how lucky lucky LUCKY I am, that I could structure my education just by what interested me, that I could (and still can) study what I wanted just for the pleasure of it, that I could go to a place like Williams where I learned as much (or more) outside the classroom as in, and that I can pick jobs and careers that pleased me.
November 15th, 2008 at 5:20 pm
A bit of a digression, but fortunate many are, too, that “day job” is now an accepted, understood, and respected concept — and don’t we all rush on with eagerness to find out what the passion is that it is supporting?
November 15th, 2008 at 6:22 pm
I also came in not knowing exactly what I wanted to do (though I did have a childhood dream in the back of my mind, I wasn’t committed to it and really wanted to explore). I did explore a lot freshman year, decided after one course that I wasn’t interested in the major that most closely related to the childhood dream, changed my mind over the summer, begged to get into the intro seminar for that major, and am now applying to graduate school in it. It’s only as I’m deciding which schools to apply to that I realize I have, step by step and without really noticing, committed to it. So I think you can have a good middle ground between exploration and certainty, just by keeping doors open for vague but appealing ideas.
I think Ronit’s right about double majoring, though. I double majored in a language because I had so study abroad credit and it only required a couple of extra courses, but in your junior or senior year the flexibility to take a couple courses in new areas of interest might be worth more than that extra word on the diploma. Sometimes I think Williams students double major and add concentrations so often because we can’t have minors and we want to look more accomplished, which can be hard to admit because it sounds so silly. If your son thinks of two possible majors in terms of “primary” and “secondary,” rather than being unable to choose between them, no need to major in the secondary one.
November 15th, 2008 at 8:40 pm
I would ask your son which professor(s) have inspired him, then look at those department(s). I’d also have him think about which classes have piqued his intellectual curiosity & which he’s had stimulating discussions. These are potential mentors & colleagues.
November 15th, 2008 at 8:59 pm
-Major in whatever field of studies has the most courses that interest you. This is different from picking a major by quality professors - in my opinion, if Williams has the world’s best astrophysics teachers but the subject bores you to death, don’t major in it. The advice (to focus on interests) holds for course selection: take whatever interests you the most. In fact, this also holds for job selection: work at whatever interests you the most. Very simple.
-Do not double major!
-If you pursue a job that doesn’t relate to your major, the employer or program will usually teach you all you need to know. (Medicine is an exception, but even then, there are programs - Mt. Sinai comes to mind - allowing you to do post-graduate medical studies to prepare for med school)
November 15th, 2008 at 11:54 pm
Just one comment re: graduate work. In many cases you can do graduate work in an area that was not your major, as long as you have enough undergraduate credits in that area. And as lgeorge implied - those people with diverse interests (like “physics and studio art”) often bring a unique point of view to every area. I’ve been fortunate enough to have worked with some and they are the most intellectually exciting!
November 16th, 2008 at 3:22 am
Well. Well, let’s talk about contingencies.
PHYS 105. Fall 1998. Morely’s lab, in the basement of Physics (now named for Morely). “The Physics of Light.” Ford Science course: 10 students, 2 professors, a half million or more for equipment. Incredible excess.
The title was somewhat intentionally deceiving: the point, the ‘device,’ of the course, was to hide where it would lead.
It ‘was’ ‘about’:
Learning to build a laser in an afternoon. (You need a flourescent tube and some good mirrors, and a way to align them, and…). Soldering a circuit board to produce a radiation detector (hooked up to some devices you/we couldn’t possible produce;– not to mention that none of us could have possibly produced a 5mm circular mirror with 99.5% reflection, within three months).
But it mostly a course about ‘identity,’ the meaning of the world and life, Life, ‘the’ ‘data.’
It ‘was’ ‘about’ collecting data, recording it, about, that, this ‘is’ this…
It was about the ‘logical coupula,’ the ability and power of stating “this is this,” and about proof…
About those little “identity” “identities” proofs you all may have done in high school geometry, or algebra…
About writing down, “this” equals “this,” one = “1″;
Stating the proposition, and iterating it– changing one side or another, while maintaining the equality, the “truth” of the statement, until one gets to something hithertothen unseen, unobvious.
For the ten of us that Fall, we gathered the data, we probed “nature” and reality, we wrote down our observations in our “field notes” and lab journals, we reformulated and reworked and thought and restated the data, until
deep into the Winter, between the Thanksgiving and the Christmas, we found the uniquely concise and simple and elegant solution, the statement:
Energy, ‘is’, (equal to), the mass of an object multiplied by the speed of light by the speed of light. E=mc(2).
We’d all heard it before (yawn).
To come to it from “first principles,” to start with Michaelson and Morely’s knowledge, and discover it oneself
In twelve weeks!
I’ve told this story in many ways and many times; I’ve ascended the tiers of Sand Hill Road twice with its moral of what human dedication and effort might achieve– once jokingly offering my “stock position” in exchange for Xerox PARC–
and it is a tale of contigency and discovery, of finding the lessons of the journey change what one is and where one is going.
To, “for instance,” stand with Edward Teller and Michael May, at the edge of the Grand Canyon, and talk of Alamagordo and our choices; at nineteen.
But that ‘is’ “another story” and talking too much of myself;
what I’d prefer tonight is to hear a bit more about the others in the course– the theatre major, the economics major (and the one who stayed in Physics), what this meant to them.
But ‘for what it is worth’ the course took four hours of lecture and four of lab per week: a bit more than that (sometimes quite a bit more) outside. I may not remember all ‘the Hours,’ nor two thousand of them (immediately), but surely more than two. (For those who met me in the International House Cafe at Berkeley, huddled in the corner of the atrium with circuit boards and soldering irons and chips and wires!, modifying… well blame Profs. Wooters and Straight.)
Blame Bill for me not becoming a physicist as well; and Ed and Michael…
But the process, the incredible possibility of exploring one’s passions, one’s possibilities: that’s what’s this ‘is’ ‘about’. Major
and I want hear… tonight I want to hear, so much, about the others, their tales, their courses, what this meant for them, and {still:: where this may go}
Oh: as well: E does not equal mc(2) for all iterations of the equations; Leibniz(’s monads) win(s) over Descartes(’s “identity”); Life and its meaning ‘is’ more complex. FWIW.
And the beer…
November 16th, 2008 at 9:41 am
Ken, its always such a pleasure to read your posts. They’re elegant.
I arrived at Williams in tie-dye and Birkenstocks, absolutely secure in the fact that I would major in Poli Sci with a concentration in International Relations, study abroad somewhere “developing” and Spanish-speaking, probably do a rotation in the Peace Corps, and then go to law school for international human rights law, followed by another stint living somewhere else abroad or, certainly, working for the UN.
What ended up stopping that was that I took Cheryl Shanks’ International Law class and hated it. Not because Shanks wasn’t a great professor (she was), not because I did poorly on the assignments and thought my chances of success poor (I didn’t…mostly), but because the reading bored me and I couldn’t get excited about the prospect of putting several more years into learning and talking about it.
This isn’t the point in the story where I had an epiphany in Driscoll and discovered that I really did love to play the violin and switched to a music major or that I really was good at biology and math and rekindled my adolescent dream to become a large-animal vet. (In 8th grade, before the tie-dye really got serious, I cultivated a minor obsession with James Herriot and asked my dad to take me to Cornell Vet School’s open house so I could best plan my high school courses.)
I stuck with the Poli Sci department but switched over to an individual concentration (you have to choose one of four in the department or come up with a coherent plan to make up your own) that looked a little like comparative politics with a dash of sociology and history. Hands down, the most influential course I took in my major was Alex Willingham’s non-profits tutorial. For one thing, it was the first tutorial I took and it pushed me to be a better, more organized writer and clearer, more cogent speaker. For another, it still shapes how I think about the intersection of non-profits with the private sector and policymaking organs. Other standouts were Cathy Johnson’s Intro to American Politics and Public Policy classes (virtually everything I’ve learned in grad school about policy I had already learned in those two classes, and she insists upon good writing) and Jim Mahon’s courses on Latin American politics.
Other standouts: Kenda Mutongi’s History of Apartheid class (never had a professor demand so much accountability for reading the material and forming, articulating, and defending an opinion on it), Cathy Johnson and Peggy Diggs’ Practicing Feminism seminar, a seminar on Jewish feminism taught by a visiting professor, and Latin American Political Thought, taught by Diego Von Vacano who was, I believe, a Bolin fellow (examining where theory and real life meet and what this means for people’s everyday experiences), and Brad Verter’s Religion and Popular Culture. I took the last with Rory, and it’s hard to explain what that class was like to people who weren’t in it, but it was quite a trip.
SophMom, I don’t really have any new “pearls” for your son. Others have articulated them much better than I could, and it sounds like you and your partner have already imparted a great many to him in the last eighteen or nineteen years. My point with all that above is only to stress that he should love learning about whatever he chooses and it should make him hungry to turn that acquired knowledge into practice. For the classes I mentioned, those were the ones that I couldn’t wait to settle in with a cup of coffee to do the reading, that I was anxious to get to class so we could talk about what we had read, and whose methods or approach (if not material) I still call upon today in graduate school or at work.
P.S. I did, ultimately, lose the tie-dye and Birkenstocks by around mid-sophomore year.
November 16th, 2008 at 11:50 am
Thanks, SophM, for starting this topic. I’ve enjoyed reading all the contributions. I will pass on to my son the recommendation not to double major. He’s someone who is thinking of combining a hard science or math with art.
I just wonder what people are doing now. Eg., Ken, if not physics, what? Or, those who seem to have gone to or are now in grad school, what areas? To those working toward doctorates, I sincerely empathize.
November 16th, 2008 at 12:43 pm
Of these, Ronit made the comment I most agreed with (minus the semi-misanthropic anti-love part)
I did too, and didn’t know anyone else did.
But don’t go for his advice on majoring in “whatever has the most interesting professors.” I’m sure if he considered that a bit he’d realize it’s advice one can’t really follow, there is obviously no single leader there, and you’d drive yourself crazy trying to know.
Ditto on double majoring. Even if you don’t have to sacrifice much to do it, doing so is pointless, valueless. I did ENGL-PSYC for the reason others described; I had sort of just found that I was already taking those classes and wanted to keep doing so. It also felt like less of a decision, less limiting, and thus more attractive. This is an illusion. The decision did not require sacrifice from me until senior fall, when I was one required class away from finishing PSYC but found that its only slot was in conflict with an ENGL course and a botany course I wanted to take. That was an awful few weeks, and while the knowledge I gained in PSYC helps me to this day, the fact that I took the ninth class and got the major never has, and never will.
Let this nugget of truth I most centrally believe about college guide your son: your liberal arts education is not about girding yourself with any credential. It is about thoughtfully becoming the person you are.
The professional world, peers and family, and, on bad days, your own ruminating mind will make the choice of a major feel important, perhaps dire. For this reason alone you should think about it until you can explain your reason to yourself, but only to be ready to answer those questions well enough that they don’t upset you any more than minimally necessary.
. . . Oh, and about love, since Ronit opened that box: Be open to it. Just sleep in your own bed most nights. People will give you limitless space if you have the kind of relationship that pushes out everything else, and that is too much space to have.
November 16th, 2008 at 8:32 pm
To answer Parent ’12’s question:
-Philosophy major (’07) working in investment banking
November 16th, 2008 at 8:35 pm
These days one needs to be philosophical about investment banking.
November 16th, 2008 at 11:33 pm
I don’t think it’s a bad idea to sign up for a double major. But I agree you should definitely drop one if there’s some other course you’d rather take. I wish I had.
I think I would have eventually gone to graduate school in whatever I majored in.
November 17th, 2008 at 2:01 pm
So much thoughtful suggestion and insight here. These comments are, in themselves, a tribute to the Williams education, and a treasure trove for undergrads. I have so enjoyed this thread.
Someone, (was it Larry?) talked about the pleasure of continuing education, of remaining curious, and of circling back to one’s earliest passions at an older age. This was the case for me. And though it gave me a later start at my current career, I don’t regret all the ‘in-between’ jobs. They have all contributed to what I do now, as well as given me a deeper appreciation of the luxury, the blessing, of being able to now immerse myself in work that I love.
Some of you are so much younger than I, and show so much more wisdom than I had at your age, that I can’t presume to offer ‘advice’. But instead, I’d like to say, that no matter your current work, or achievement, if you can continue to have the kind of intellectual curiosity, and generosity of spirit that you exhibit here, you are in for one heck of an adventure.
And I think that’s what many of you are already understanding, that the real accomplishment of a Williams degree…rather than expertise in a particular subject, is instead, a frame of mind, a way of looking at the world, that increases your likelihood of a full and satisfying life.
November 17th, 2008 at 2:28 pm
This is one of the very best discussions I’ve seen on EphBlog. I, too, believe it is a tribute to the Williams education (and, like Soph Mom, continue to be humbled and deeply impressed in particular by the wisdom of the recent grduates).
Thank you starting the conversation, Soph Mom.
November 21st, 2008 at 2:03 am
“A day late and a dollar short” whatever that may mean in today’s nanoseconds and currency, but none-the-less an entry under Sophmom’s fine post on Majors.
I’m thinking of three periods for consideration. In school; those first years in whatever race of rattiness you have chosen; and later in life when things may not have gone quite as you had planned.
In school. In the first five minutes of Art 1-2 with Whit Stoddard and then as Lane Faison and Bill Pierson and Frank Trapp joined in this remarkable class, I was a goner for the Art History major. I found the vocabulary and grammar for the language I always knew I wanted to speak. I took other classes because they interested me and (as mentioned in another post about A’s) the gentleman C was passing and acceptable. But I knew I wasn’t going into a specific field like medicine or engineering.
My advice to my children (all of whom have gone on into various grad school degrees) was, for goodness sake take the stuff you want to take in college and wait till later for those more specific courses. While I recognize the competition for grad school places is more intense now than it was, be sure to build a base for understanding what has gone on, what is going on and what will go on.
Those first years in the rat-race. Getting that first job, at least in the nontechnical communications fields that held my interest was not related to any major. But, and I hate to reopen the Dave post on the Pittsfield dinner, it helped to be somewhat presentable and well-spoken coupled with ability to think your way through a problem and write an intelligent essay. And it was amazing how, if not in the specific details, principles learned in courses suddenly were able to be applied.
Going up whatever ladder you might have chosen to hang yourself from depended on learning the tools of the trade and being able to apply them in some manner beyond the expected. At some point the gentleman C was no longer in effect. But the courses and the understanding gained are what made the difference to be able to come up with an interesting approach that others might buy into. My major was not the rungs of the ladder, it was the building itself.
Later in life. Careers sometimes seem to have a life of their own. Luck, the invisible hand of the marketplace, health, family, geography, timing may not be entirely under your control. In my case, some really dumb moves added in as well.
Yet at some point you have to come to grips with whatever it seems you have become. It helps if you have a philosophy (with a very small ‘p’)
Here is one from a very creative friend -
“As far as what I ‘took away’ from the Hollywood lights? Mostly that there is always someone prettier, sexier, smarter, luckier, more talented, and better connected…waiting in the wings, and so you might as well learn to be satisfied with your own deck of cards….and be grateful for the moments when the hand plays well
“There are moments where I fantasize about the success I might have had as an artist if I had gotten a degree, and started painting in my 20s…but the moment passes in a second, and then I grin, and chuckle, and thank my lucky stars for what we do have!”
I agree completely. And for me that art history major together with the other courses in English, music, and history have given me the base for being able to look at enjoy the here and now without the shoulda/woulda of regret. Without the curse of boredom. In being able to view and enjoy and maybe have a glimmer of understanding of what the world is.
I always end up saying a Williams education is the grounding in a lifetime sport.
It puts you in (groan) the major leagues.
November 21st, 2008 at 11:42 am
Dick,
I am glad I saw that you had posted this last night, or I might have missed it.
It is a wise and wonderful reflection, and such an apt summary of this thread.
A sense of humor, a willingness to laugh at yourself, joie de vivre… I have to think that all these things have as much to do with success and satisfaction in life, as the acquiring of skills and knowledge…maybe more. It’s called charm, and it is a gift, for those who have it, and for those lucky enough to partake of it. Thanks for sharing yours with us.
For your amusement, and a few other bloggers here [...], and since you make reference to it above, here is a little walk down memory lane..
Be sure and note the date, and again, Faison. :-)
November 22nd, 2008 at 10:21 am
Here’s what some of my friend majored in at Williams and where they are now:
I had a friend who doubled in Astrophysics/Religion who is now a doctor after going to a post bacc program.
-A PoliSci (Int’l Relations)/Bio double who is a doctor
-A Math/Econ/CompSci triple who was Pi Beta Kappa who works for a hedge fund
-Compsci major working as actuary
-PoliSci major working on Capitol Hill
-Bio major who went to do a PhD in the topic who regrets having gone to grad school and wasting her time when what she wanted to do was int’l public health
-American Studies major who works as a community organizer for nonprofits
-Bio and Chem double major who nearly had enough classes to finish religion major as well but decided against it. Is now a doctor.
-Art Studio/Bio double - fashion design
I guess my point is that your major can either be tangentially, wholly, or not at all related to what you wind up in. That it’s about the path as much as the destination. I guess the other less on is: work for at least 1 year in the real world before going to or deciding on graduate studies. Not only will it help make you better grounded, it’s good to pursue some other goals before going straight into getting a PhD for instance. Most of my friends who went straight into the science PhDs have largely regretted it and I don’t know a single one who is continuing to teach or do research.
November 22nd, 2008 at 10:57 am
A tip to folks who decide to decide to work or travel for at least a year before applying to graduate school: before you leave campus, go to professors whom you could ask to be your recommenders for graduate or professional school. Explain the situation to them and alert them to the fact that you may be asking for a recommendation in a few years. Save some of your work from their classes that you can then share with them when you ask their help in a few years. Keep up with them (you should do this anyway, recommendations quite aside) — and remember to note where they go if they are visitors, or retire. Williams professors remember their students well, but the best recommendations tend to be written when a student is fresh in one’s mind. Doing a little bit of groundwork now, perhaps several years before you actually complete your applications, will make things easier for you and for your professors if and when the application time ever comes.