Tue 5 May 2009
Princess of York ‘13
Posted by David under Admissions, Princess Eugenie at 4:58 pm
Jeff noted that the Duchess of York had visited Williams. Key paragraph:
“The scuttlebutt,” Abrams explains, “is that the Duchess of York had an appointment at Williams College to discuss the prestigious school for possible placement for one of her daughters. Since she was swept off the plane and driven directly to Berkshire County, Fergie wanted to freshen-up and change her outfit before going on to her meeting. The limousine driver was instructed to stop at a local hotel to ask if a room could be made available as a courtesy for that purpose,” Abrams notes.
The daughter would probably be Princess Eugenie of York
Attentive readers will note that she is wearing purple. A princess at Williams? What will my friends in Women’s Studies say? Previous famous female Eph matriculants have included a soap opera character, an OC resident and the President’s daughter, but all of these were fictitious.
I added the above as an UPDATE to Jeff’s post. After some discussion, we decided that it would be best to split off this photo and the associated discussion into a new thread. Please read the comments in the previous thread for full context. Comments:
1) Ronit points out that this is not really a photo of Princess Eugenie. More here:
Eugenie, daughter of Fergie and Prince Andrew and sixth in line to the throne, seems to have become the latest victim of computer retouching after posing for the cover of next month’s Tatler magazine.
Gone is her teenage puppy fat and awkward smile – replaced with the bone structure of a supermodel.The Mirror’s health expert Dr Miriam Stoppard said: “It’s that arm that’s the giveaway because it’s the arm of an anorexic.
“I really feel sorry for Princess Eugenie because the aspiration to look so altered through airbrushing is really sad.”
And beauty expert Madeline Crisp added: “She has lost her youthful bloom.”
Eugenie, who will be 18 on March 23, isn’t the first to be airbrushed by a magazine. Kate Winslet was famously made more slender by GQ in 2003.
At least the princess is in right royal company then.
Indeed. Photo above from Google Images.
2) JG asks about the “posting a gratuitous pic.” Well, the context here is that adding pictures to posts is a good thing. I, and other authors, should do it more often. Having decided to add a photo of Princess Eugenie, which one should I select? Given the choices available from Google, I would say that the one I choose was, at first glance, the best since a) she is wearing purple, b) it is a posed, professional, high quality photograph and c) rather than a paparazzi shot taken without her permission, the Princess must have consented to Tattler using that photo. When in doubt, I prefer to allow people to present themselves as they wish to. What criteria would critics use instead?
3) InvisibleMom’10 writes:
If Fergie was under the impression that this idyllic, yet remote academic institution, would provide Eugenie with privacy, one look at EphBlog and she’d know the truth.
That’s right. Nasty old EphBlog is the sort of place that would republish the photo that you posed for and which appeared on the cover of a national magazine. We are eeeevil. As eyetoldyouso comments:
I am not sure posting a cover photo from a magazine with a 300 year history and a current circulation of around 90,000 constitutes an invasion of privacy. I think, but would not know, that you pose for covers because you want people to look at you.
Indeed.
4) sophmom adds:
Why is there a photo of the daughter posted? Because DK thinks she might be the one considering Williams?
The story is fun and amusing, but posting the photo is going too far.
My guess is that it is Eugenie who is considering Williams. Her elder sister Beatrice is already in college. The Princess seems to have the intellectual chops and interest in art history that would make Williams a natural fit. Since she the plan seems to have been for her to start college in the fall of 2009, she may already be a member of the class of 2013. You read it on EphBlog first.
What policy would Sophmom (or anyone else) propose for posting photos? The Princess is a 19 years-old famous public figure, 6th in line to the thrown of England. She has had her photo taken literally millions of times. She posed for Tattler. If I can’t use that photo, is there any photo that I can use?
Without directing this comment toward any reader in particular, let me just say that the whole discussion reminds me of the commentary surrounding the Vanity Fair photo of Erin Burnett ‘98. In both cases, we have highly intelligent and attractive women who have chosen how they want to present themselves to the world. Why don’t we grant them the respect they deserve? Why attack me for posting photos that were clearly meant, by both women, to be seen far and wide?
Now, of course, there is some chance that neither Burnett nor Eugenie wanted to present themselves in this fashion. Perhaps they were tricked by the photographer. Perhaps they were misled by the publication. Eugenie, after all, was only 17 at the time the cover photo was taken. Yet, I highly doubt that that’s what happened. Burnett and Eugenie have advisers and staff. They almost certainly retained veto rights over the photos. It was almost certainly a collaborative effort. We are viewing the photos that they wanted us to view.
So why is everyone mad at me?
Print • Email| « Royals at Williams | The race decides » |
55 Responses to “Princess of York ‘13”
Leave a Reply
You can follow this conversation by subscribing to the comment feed for this post
If a comment you submitted does not show up, please email us at eph at ephblog dot com. Please note that commenters are required to use a valid email address when submitting comments.






Ronit says:
Comment moved from previous thread:
It’s an interesting question. A big part of the reason she might be considering a US college might be that she is not a public figure in the US. Tatler is a British magazine, and I’d doubt that even 1% of Americans would be able to identify the person in that cover photo. (Given how badly they photoshopped it, I’d wonder if her own mother could identify her from that photo).
Whatever college she attends, it’s reasonable to expect that she would want to be treated by her fellow students and by faculty as more or less a normal person. If going to Williams implies obsessive coverage on EphBlog (which has a small reach compared to Tatler, but is read by a large number of people in the Eph community – at Williams, EphBlog is far bigger than Tatler), I would advise her to stay the hell away from Williams.
(We don’t provide any special coverage of the children of trustees or major donors, do we? Will the picture of Jim Cramer’s daughter or the latest Bronfman to attend be splashed on EphBlog? I doubt it.)
I wouldn’t say that anyone’s privacy has been violated here, but I would submit that the graceful thing for us to do might be to remove the picture and not treat her potential interest in Williams differently from that of any other undergraduate.
I strongly disagree with the notion that appearing on the cover of Tatler means you surrender all privacy, or that you might never want your presence somewhere to be treated with discretion.
Ronit says:
Posting glam shots of a 17-year-old who might soon be joining the Williams community isn’t exactly… classy.
David says:
Just so. I would only post something about these individuals if they did/wrote something that would merit a post if it came from any other student. If Cramer’s daughter writes good (or bad) op-eds in the Record, you will hear from me, not because she is Cramer’s daughter but because she is writing for the Record.
Perhaps the one tricky issue is that we are more like to post news about acceptances (rumored or actual) for noteworthy applicants rather than anonymous ones. (Ronit can hardly complain about that practice.)
At the same time, if any Williams student posed for the cover of Tattler, wouldn’t that merit a post on EphBlog? Once you have, of your own volition, made yourself a public figure than my assumption will be, until you tell me differently, that you don’t mind re-postings of that photo.
No one is claiming that “appearing on the cover of Tatler means you surrender all privacy.” No straw Ephs, please. Surely we can all agree that noting the fact that the Princess may be coming to Williams is just as reasonable a post as noting that Cramer’s daughter is class of 2013. Similarly, posting a cover photo from a national magazine is OK (until someone tells us that the posee regrets the experience).
Critics would have a point if we were grabbing private (or semi-private Facebook) photos and publishing them. But that’s not what we did here.
I sometimes think that critics just don’t like it when we post pictures of attractive women. No one complained when I posted photos of over-aged men a few days ago. Why the double standard?
Will Slack '11 says:
David – if she comes (and I’ll confirm that Fergie was here), then she is a student first, not a princess. This sort of post goes against the Williams ethos, as I or others seem to understand it. You may feel differently, but she wouldn’t be making an appearance and speaking on something she’s knowledgeable about. She would be learning.
For example, you posted a video of my friend Aaron Flack (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ooa8nHKPZ5k) two years ago – and it worked because the theme/video was in line with what Williams is about. Glam shots, not so much.
David says:
I would like to push you a bit on that. What aspect of the Williams ethos makes it praise-worthy for me to post a YouTube video by 17 year-old future Epg Aaron Flack but problematic to post a picture of 17 year-old (potential) future Eph Eugenie? In both cases, our 17 year-old performers wanted their images to be seen far and wide.
I suspect that your answer will be something along the lines of cool-nerdy-math-jokes === Williams ethos while glam cover photos != Williams ethos.
And perhaps you are right. (And note my nerdy math humor in even framing the discussion.)
But, last time I checked, there was a wide diversity of opinions about the Williams ethos. Are there no Ephs who read fashion magazines? Are there no Ephs who perfer glam photos to Youtube videos? I bet that there are.
1980 says:
She’s 19 (not 17) and a public figure and the photo is not offensive (airbrushing etc aside)- I don’t have a problem with posting it.
Having said that, if she does turn out to be a Williams student, then I think this should be the last Ephblog discussion about her.
JG says:
I don’t think it’s an invasion of privacy to post a pic from a magazine cover, although in this case I think it was unnecessary and somewhat tasteless. It is a trashy picture. Given the controversy surrounding that photo, I also thought it somewhat irresponsible.
Finally, since David clearly has zero idea about how magazine covers work, they often (1) airbrush the crap out of them after-the-fact and the subjects have no control and (2) freely change the color of clothes to make pics look “fresh” and re-use them. She had to consent to posing for the mag, but she certainly didn’t have to consent to them altering the crap out of the picture.
Again, for me this isn’t about your freedom to post it – you certainly may. But I may also freely judge your choice of what is posted. Most photos I’ve seen you put up of women that are Ephs or in the wider Eph community are posed provacatively (see the Erin Burnett posts or Molly Shattuck for reference).
JG says:
Sorry to double-post…
I’d also point out as far as the newsworthiness, her MOTHER was the one wandering around making a fuss in Williamstown and acting spoiled, not her. Why not post a pic of Fergie?
Larry George says:
I will go with JG on this. We don’t even know which of the daughters was involved (perhaps Beatrice is considering a transfer or the graduate art program?). The appropriate photograph would have been that of Fergie. Even better, a photograph of the Williams Inn would have perfectly fit the underlying travel industry story being covered.
The second I saw the photograph, I remarked, “If I can stand to read this post, I will find DK finding a way to pull in mentions of Erin Burnett.”
sophmom says:
Dave,
A few commenters express concern about a post, and your response is to make more of it? And then to include our comments in your second (and even tackier) post? I don’t even know where to start. How rude, and for what?
First of all, you are GUESSING that this young woman has applied to Williams, you have no FACTS. You have titled the post as if she has been accepted when you don’t even know if she has applied.
And you don’t seem to know where to draw the line. Jeff posts an amusing little story, one about the mother, I might add, and one that (ironically) illustrates how Williams might just be the kind of place where a young woman like this might have a small town campus experience, and you stretch it to the point that someone who wasn’t even the subject of the original story, now has multiple photos, along with lots of “scuttlebutt” and gossip, all over the front page of EphBlog.
frank uible says:
If EphBlog is going to post pictures, I vote for going whole hog and making a bunch of them ones of Pamela Anderson – VA-VA-VOOM.
eyetolduso says:
Not sure if it changes the objections or not but Tatler in spite of the suggestive name is a very high end fashion magazine owned by Conde Nast and Thomas Nutzl the photographer shoots for many of the world’s finest fashion houses. I would be fairly sure he was not shooting the subject in a manner to cause ridicule or appear trashy. You have to get in line with the who’s who of the beautiful people to get on the cover of Tatler, if that’s your kind of thing.
jeffz says:
Again, as I alluded to in a comment to my own post, I do think if a member of the royal family ends up matriculating at Williams, that would be a huge story for Williams (and undoubtedly it would receive a lot of media attention beyond Ephblog). I don’t see anything wrong with noting that here. However, if and when any such celebrity starts at Williams, this blog should not become a tabloid — we should in that case leave her be to enjoy her undergrad years in as normal a fashion as possible. Once they are an alumnus, then we can celebrate any newsworthy accomplishments as we would any alumni. But again, Ephblog should not be a tabloid (even though at times it has veered in that direction, mostly via posts from DK), and I really hope the Board takes steps to ensure that this won’t happen. In any event, this is all in the realm of the hypothetical right now.
rory says:
kaneblog strikes again.
Ronit says:
David – here’s a suggestion: treat others’ kids as you’d want them to treat yours.
Ronit says:
1980 – She is NOT under any definition a public figure in the US, where she is apparently intending to attend college. What percentage of Americans have even heard of her, let alone would recognize her picture?
Maybe she doesn’t want her college years spent escaping tabloid cameras? While it might be perfectly permissible, given that she’s 19, for old men on EphBlog to leer at her, it is hardly a considerate thing to do to a potential member of the Williams community. David’s legalistic defense dodges the central thing that so many of us find distasteful about this kind of post.
1980 says:
Ronit – I disagree. I think she is a public figure in the US. Dig through People Magazine and I bet you’ll find her on the cover as an infant. I woke up at the crack of dawn to watch her parents get married (I know, I know, in retrospect I don’t know why I did this). There is a surprisingly large % of the American public who find the British royal family endlessly fascinating. But read the rest of my post above – I absolutely agree that she should be able to lead the life of an entirely private student at Williams (I am confident this would happen within the Williams community) and she should not be the topic of any future ephblog discussions.
JG says:
I don’t care what magazine it is, a photo can still seem trashy; likewise, a trashy magazine can also at times post classy photos. Viewers can also have varying opinions on photos.
I’ll admit to looking at this through the lens of (1) it being airbrushed/photoshopped into her not really seeming to look like herself and (2) David only posting (vaguely or blatantly) suggestive photos of women but never of men and almost never non-suggestive ones of women. Since there are VERY few women who regularly post (although more are commenting lately), I am somewhat sensitive to it. Perhaps in another context I’d like the photo, but here it was jarring to me.
It also just seemed unnecessary – like David wanting to put another girlie shot on the site. Jeff had already posted about it – why did we need more? It’s a goofy enough story (royalty running around western Mass asking for freebies) that more sensationalism was hardly necessary. This wasn’t a boring post that need punching up. Hell David, it already even mentioned you – if this is to be EPHblog and not Kaneblog, other people have to be allowed to post in their own voices and styles – and yes, even scoop you.
David says:
JG writes:
Perhaps I am just a secular hedonist, but just what makes that picture “trashy?” Back in the day, there were be scores of Eph undergraduate women wearing very similar dresses to Spring Fling. What will female seniors be wearing to the Mount Hope dance next month? Burkhas?
As a reader points out (and roughly speaking) Tattler equals Vanity Fair and photographer Thomas Nutzl equals Annie Liebowitz.
I did not know about the controversy the first time I posted it.
That’s just pathetic. I have written thousands of posts and put up scores of pictures. I bet that you can not find a single photo besides these three that would meet any reasonable definition of provocative. “Most?” Give me a break. Is Vicky Fang ‘98 provocative? Or Cappy Hill ‘76? Or Ana Sani ‘08? Or this Eph? Professor Bean? Eve Epstein ‘93? Do I need to go on?
I probably just let this go, but I have daughters (and a wife and a mom) and so this slur that “[m]ost photos” that I post of female ephs are “posed provacatively” is quite offensive to me.
And it gets better! Your hypothesis is that I am someone who takes any excuse to pose provocative photos of female ephs. If so, then why didn’t I post any photos of the Eph porn star? In fact, not only did I decline to post a photo, but I wouldn’t even post a link to the video. That’s me! Any excuse to show some skin!
Summary: I have posted at most a handful of photos that might fairly be termed provocative. In every single case the photo was clearly intended, by the woman in question, for wide distribution. You may wish that they did not intend that. Take it up with them, not me.
JG says:
I said most photos I’ve seen you post. Thank god for my own sanity I wasn’t around Ephblog in 2004 and 2005, and I also often ignore your posts for my own sanity. I’m sure you can find all kinds of stuff to post – but again, I said that I’ve seen so feel free to refute that part. (and I was thinking of the bikini photo of Molly Shattuck and the provocative photo of Erin Burnett and this one)
Again, my thesis wasn’t that you don’t have the right to post them nor that they weren’t public before. I feel like I’m now beating the horse of it’s not about your right to post, it’s about the choices. I am allowed to disagree with your choices. You can feel free to pull out the “but I have a wife and daughters” crap now – but how about you apply that to your ridiculous crap about Eph marriages? You have a marriage but no shame in that department. GET OFF IT YOU HYPOCRITE!!!!!!!
David says:
JG writes:
I agree completely.
I guess that what I am looking for from you (or anyone) is some sort of rule-of-thumb about what is a reasonable photo to publish and what is not.
I suspect that we would agree that there are whole classes of photos (like, say, taken from private Facebook pages) that should not (except in extreme circumstances) be published. I think that we would also agree that if anyone asked that a photo be removed, we should remove it. I also think (corrections welcome) that everyone agrees that it is acceptable to publish first, that I did not need to seek permission from these Ephs before I put their photos on EphBlog.
And, if we can agree on all that, then I think that we have made real progress.
So, let’s focus on this photo. My rule is that it is reasonable to post any photo clearly intended by the person photographed to be widely distributed. In that case, Eugenie clearly intended (at the time) for her photo to appear on the cover of a national magazine. So, as a first pass, there is nothing wrong with me posting it.
What rule (to be applied in future cases) would you propose that would suggest that I not post this?
You write:
For the record, I have done “punching up” for several folks, especially where images are involved. No one has ever complained. (And Jeff was fine with this addition in the first pass.) I do this to add value.
It is, of course, a tricky balance. There are at least three strategies that I can use when I have new information/images that are directly related to someone else’s post. I can just post it in the comments. (That’s fine and certainly what I do 90% of the time.) If I think that information is important enough to merit placement in a main post (because many readers who don’t read the comments will want to know about it), I have two choices: Add it to the current post or create a new post.
Neither option is perfect. By adding it to a new post, I essentially, without really wanting to, hijack the conversation. I am saying, more or less, “Don’t talk about X over there. Talk about X over here.” It is somewhat rude to the original poster. But, at the same time, it is necessary if I think that what I have to say is different enough or I think the original poster would object.
In this case, the information — Princess coming to Williams — was important enough that it needed to be in the main post. Jeff, in my opinion, buried the lead. Our readers don’t really care that much whether or not Fergie came to Williamstown and/or what her reception was like at the Williams Inn. They care a lot about whether or not her daughter is in the class of 2013.
So, in this case, not wanting to hijack the discussion and guessing (correctly) that Jeff would have no objection to the addition, I just added it to the post.
Sam says:
David,
If you take offense, you should think about the offense you cause….
rory says:
oh, this is not going to go well at all
rory says:
btw, why in god’s name does this need a second post?!?!
Ken Thomas '93 says:
Google: define: pornography
MSN Encarta: Pornography
Merriam-Webster: Pornography
Wikipedia: Pornography
frank uible says:
See Jacobellis v. Ohio – a classic. [Link added, presuming Frank does not object. --93kwt as Ed.]
kthomas says:
In reference to David’s requests for explication here and elsewhere, Potter Stewart’s concurring opinion may be worth review:
kthomas says:
Also, vergleich:
kthomas says:
Dan is de vraag, waarom deze vertegenwoordiging van de prinses, of– in plaats v{a|o}n– andere? Wat geroepen, wordt de cultuur?
sophmom says:
Dave,
There is a larger point here that is being missed, and avoided, depending on which side you are arguing.
I believe you knew exactly what you were doing when you took Jeff’s article and made it into something it wasn’t. There were no facts to warrant your turning that story into this one. You did what every slimy gossip magazine attempts, which is to capitalize on a kernel of something acceptable, and stretch it into something with a more attention-getting headline, indeed, a whole new story. It is yellow journalism at it’s best.
And in doing that, you have managed to distract everyone here into forgetting that this is all based on hearsay. You don’t have any real evidence that this young woman has even applied for admission, and yet you have her accepted as the “Class of 13″.
And, frankly, I find it amazing that, as the father of young women, you are unable to set aside your compulsive need for a lively controversial thread, for even the very small moment required to consider the personal feelings of another young woman…one who should never have been made the subject of this post to begin with. You must believe yourself very far removed to not understand how easily one person could be the other but for a simple twist of fate. I find that very naive on your part.
So, if this young woman did apply, and is accepted, we here at EB may have given her sufficient reason to go elsewhere. If not, and she ends up attending, then I commend her. Either way, we have done her no favors, and all for what? A contentious discussion that led nowhere…and all at her expense.
Ben Fleming says:
I think you mean “worst,” but in any case, it’s not yellow journalism at all. Which story is actually newsworthy: the Dutchess of York getting a favor from the owners of the Williams Inn, or the fact she was meeting about one of her daughters possibly attending Williams? It’s not close. The former isn’t newsworthy, except in a soft, human interest-y type of way; the second is the type of thing that’s discussed here all the time. How many threads do we have about applicants’ essays and the like? Tons. Because EphBlog finds it interesting.
So what? We need proof before we can discuss something? Since when? This isn’t something like the Edwards Affair, when it was arguable that one really needed to have the goods before throwing around accusations on such a sensitive topic. This is a largely positive (or at least not negative) mention of someone extremely famous possibly coming to Williams. If you’re just mad that David didn’t put a question mark in the title of this post, well …
Respectfully, you don’t know anything at all about her personal feelings, so this is pointless. Nobody has any idea how this post would or would not affect her college choice.
We have here a story, which no one seems to think is untrustworthy, of Fergie coming to Williams to talk about her daughter attending. Fergie has one college-age daughter, who happens to get good grades and take art history. The daughter has been on the cover of Tatler, which offensively PhotoShopped her. If connecting these dots really offends anyone, they should grow thicker skin.
Larry George says:
Dave says, “For the record, I have done ‘punching up’ for several folks, especially where images are involved. No one has ever complained. (And Jeff was fine with this addition in the first pass.) I do this to add value.”
No, from my perspective, Dave, you did not add value: quite the opposite, for reasons noted by a plethora of readers. You ruined an interesting post by another poster, and did so with cheap and unfounded sensationalism and at the expense of a young woman who may not even be involved in the underlying story. Have you absolutely no ability to restrain yourself? Is this all about audience for you?
I had thought that the endeavor was to keep people up-to-date about, and to provide a forum for sharing thoughtful conversations about, “All Things Eph.” I suppose that, really stretching it, everything you say and think and do is something “Eph” because you are an alumnus, but I literally physically gag at that idea. If you have any interest in this endeavor succeeding as EphBlog, not some bizarre (and I’ll be nice and leave off two other, much rougher, adjectives that immediately come to mind) personal KaneBlog, could you please try to have some confidence in others and their ability to post and comment without your injections of “value” and the like?
Larry George says:
P.S. Dave, you have “punched up” and changed my posts before. Fortuntely,t was in minor ways, but I did not like it because I don’t like people changing or adding to what I have written, without asking my prior permission. I did not object for the following reasons: 1) it was already done so there was little point, and making a fuss over it would only detract from my post; 2) this is really KaneBlog in a lot of ways and I guess I feel I have to put up with your high degree of control and interference as a condition of posting because there is no alternative forum available to me — but I also don’t participate the way I might if things were different, and the heavy-handedness has been a contributing factor in my putting up fewer posts in recent months; and 3) I post under a pseudonym so there is no harm to my actual name to being associated with this blog or to having you change what I say (and these are two reasons, among others, for my posting pseudonymously).
You claim that Jeff was fine with your “punching up” his post. Maybe, maybe not. Maybe he just tolerated it.
Let me put myself on record, rather than let you think you have license from me to change what I write without seeking my prior approval: you don’t.
David says:
LG writes:
Can you provide the specific “posts” of yours that I changed in a way that bothers you? We could then have a useful discussion about the topic. (I certainly won’t touch a post of yours in the future.)
Thing is, I can’t recall editing your posts in anything other than a fix-the-photo-formatting sort of way except on two occasions, although it certainly might have happened more often. In doing a quick tour, I find that this post, this one and this one were all edited by someone other than you, but it wasn’t me. It was Ronit.
Here is one that I changed. In that case, all that I did was to add “width=”300″ height=”356″” to the image html code so that text layout around the photo was more pleasant. Here is another example.
And, after a post by you like this, you can hardly blame Ronit and me if we assume that you are happy to have us fix the formatting.
Again, as best that I can tell, on only two occasions, have I added a visible word to any of your posts: here and here. It won’t happen again.
rory says:
kaneblog: where even posts not made by Kane aren’t safe!
David says:
LG writes:
Do I need to post the thank-you e-mails that I have received from folks like Wick Sloane and Sophmom and others when I have edited/updated their posts? Just because you don’t like X, don’t assume that other authors don’t like X.
Again, please let Ronit know that you don’t want him touching your posts. I don’t think that he has gotten the memo yet. Or perhaps you are fine with every other administrator except for me fixing your formatting. In that case, Ronit can continue as before.
Rory: Too funny! Here is the actual e-mail exchange between me and Jeff:
Jeff replied.
So, I guess that it is a pleasant fantasy to imagine that I am, willy-knilly, editing the posts of other authors against their preferences, but, in this specific case, the author in question thanked me, as I suspected he would.
Ronit says:
In response to Larry George – We’ve never had a clear policy on what Ephblog’s “administrators” or “editors” can and can not edit on posts.
Here is my policy: as an administrator of Ephblog, I assume I have the liberty to make minor edits like fixing garbled links and garbled images – or where something was clearly intended to be a link or inline image by the author but failed to be one. If an image is too large and is blocking the sidebars, I will usually reduce the size a little and link it to the original, full-size image. If line breaks and other formatting got garbled by copying something from Word into Wordpress, I will fix that if I have the time (hint: if you’re composing in Word, use the “paste from Word” button – it looks like a clipboard with a little Word logo on top of it).
If I have additional context, commentary, etc. to add to the post, I will usually do so through the comments. However, if a post was never categorized by the author, and I feel that it would significantly help future searchers and archive-browsers to have it categorized, I may tag it with some appropriate categories. Apart from that, I would not change the actual content of any other author’s post, unless I’m specifically requested to do so by the original author or by the Board.
In essence, I hope to facilitate the conversation on EphBlog, and any adding or fixing of links or categories is aimed at making sure readers get the appropriate (author-intended) context and content, and not at titillating the viewer. At some point in the near future, while I deal with a backlog of other EphBlog related stuff, I hope to post a guide to formatting your posts – images, blockquotes, things like that. These are also things that can be figured out with Google.
rory says:
Kaneblog: where David can get mad at even the smallest joke (and LG’s complaint is still valid).
(d)avid says:
For once, I will take Kane’s side. Posting a picture that appeared on the cover of a major magazine is definitely inbounds. I can see why Kane did it as well: all text makes the blog less colorful (though Mr. Swart solves that problem generally); people are attracted to faces and connect better to stories with pictures. Jeff consented to the addition, so Kane’s behavior seems reasonable.
What would NOT be in bounds would be trolling Facebook for pictures of the young woman at Williams’ parties or recruiting students to document her life around campus. But if the young woman chooses to go on television or pose for magazines, then I reckon those moments are in bounds.
Not what I come to Ephblog to read, but not ethically impaired.
sophmom says:
Ben @31:
I stand corrected on my use of “yellow journalism”. And yes, “worst” is much better (and you would know), so thank you for setting me straight.
As for which is more “newsworthy”, the story of Fergie stopping at the Inn, or whether or not Eugenie is coming to Williams, your distinction makes sense, but has little to do with what was actually discussed here…which is my whole point, Ben. This thread was intentionally steered in the direction it ended up going. And it was done so under the guise of freely discussing all things Eph.
And though I may not know “anything at all about [Eugenie's] personal feelings”, and “how this post would or would not affect her college choice”, if you can’t see the potential harm, and embarrassment, a thread like this on EB, could cause to a young woman heading off to Williams for the first time, then I don’t know how to explain it to you.
And you wrap up your comment with the admonishment that I need to “grow thicker skin” in order to have a discussion about Fergie and her daughter coming to Williams. When and if we have that discussion, I will see if I need it.
In the meantime, judging from your comment, I’d like to suggest that you might learn to read more carefully, and develop a bit more empathy.
Ronit says:
Threads like this make me wonder why the idea of a voting widget suggested by Todd Gamblin was shot down so rapidly
rory says:
it was shot down? why?!?!
sophmom says:
Ronit@41:
If you could convince me that a voting widget would mean less threads like this one, I’d be all for it. But I fear, that instead we’d get more of this @*, and less of the stuff that now serves to balance it.
Ronit says:
sophmom – I am fairly certain that this post would have garnered a large number of negative votes. It seems like quite a few of our readers (including me) found this post to be tacky or otherwise unworthy.
Problem is, currently, discussions about appropriateness always get framed in terms of “censorship” and whether or not someone had a right to post something. These discussion turn heated and personal and are deeply unhelpful.
It’s not a question of whether or not David had a “right” to post something, it is more about whether or not the actual content being posted is the sort of thing that we, as a community, would like to see on EphBlog. What I’m proposing is that a voting tool would allow for some measure of editorial “democracy”, such that our readers would feel like their preferences are an important part of what shapes this site.
I hate, hate, hate pointless legalistic discussions, especially the ones that turn personal. I’d rather just provide a simple way for readers to tell us which posts they dislike and which they like. Just my opinion.
Larry George says:
Dave -
It was minor stuff. The point is that I don’t like people messing with things that are posted under my name without asking me first (I don’t count adjusting the size of a photograph as being in that category, and it was fine that you and Ronit fixed my photographs — and that was even done at my emailed request to Ronit on at least two occasions).
I happen to trust Ronit’s judgment, from experience and from the policy he has articulated and posted in this thread (which is, not surprisingly, consistent with my experience of his involvement), but that is my trust from experience and I wouldn’t generalize from it to other posters or other editors.
My problem with your intrusions is that I fear you might make changes that would be very serious from my perspective (and I feel that you don’t separate yourself from EphBlog sufficiently — what I write is something that I have authorship of and that does not change just because I post it on EphBlog; you personally don’t have additional rights with respect to it merely because it appears on EphBlog). You will appreciate, I believe, that I would be horrified if you appended the photograph of a certain Eph spouse cheerleader to something I had posted. What you may not understand is that, if I had posted a story about members of the royal family being driven around the Berkshires by a tux-clad minion and trying to cadge free services at local establishments and you had gratuitously added to it a heavily-PhotoShopped photograph of a young royal (who, to make it worse, might not have even been on the trip) and thereby derailed my post, I would be even more horrified. Our values and our reactions to many things are extremely different and I am acutely aware of that but I sense that you are not.
On a practical level, people never develop skills if they aren’t given the chance. Life is messy. The posts are good enough. They don’t need to be “punched up” or whatever you think you are doing. Please, just relax, sit back, and enjoy the conversation. Let it flow. Don’t leave people worrying that you will change what they post. And never forget that “minor” to you may be “major” to someone else, that many people are sensitive about being edited without their prior consent, and that we are (at last I thought we were) trying to promote a respectful, thoughtful conversation and exchange of information about Williams College and people, events, and things related to it.
Ronit says:
Also: I think it might help the brand “identity” of EphBlog if it became clear to passers-by and casual readers that we, as a community, do have some standards. Currently, anyone who is a casual reader comes to feel like pre-frosh glam shots is the “kind of thing” that EphBlog, as a corporate body, is happy to publish. In actual fact, it is clear that many of those who are part of EphBlog don’t want us to publish this kind of stuff. A number of negative votes next to this story’s headline would make that clear(er) to casual readers. As it is, I would feel hesitant to invite anyone to view EphBlog’s frontpage and ask them to view it as a constructive or informative community, when pre-frosh glam shots are plastered over the front page – without the context that the choice to post such pictures was the choice of an individual author, and not of EphBlog as a whole.
Given that my name is associated with the board of EphBlog, I am actually personally embarrassed by this post. But I am also unwilling to ask David to take it down. I’d rather just find a way to make clear to passers-by that what David thinks is appropriate is not the same as what the EphBlog community thinks is appropriate.
Hence, the suggestion for blog democracy.
JeffZ says:
Sometimes I post quickly, and I personally generally don’t mind (and sometimes appreciate) when a post is expanded with block quotes of interesting text and the like(the picture didn’t strike me as problematic either, until I learned about the photo shop stuff, at which point I asked David to either replace it with a more representative picture or do a separate post). That being said, I can see why that might upset some Ephblog posters, so maybe there should be a policy going forward where an admin requests permission ahead of time to illuminate / expand a post, other than very minor technical or formatting issues that are in no way substantive in nature.
Larry George says:
Here is a problem with a meter: I liked Jeff’s post, but I hated Dave’s adding that photograph to it. I would want to see more of the type of post Jeff was making, not shoot it down because of something extraneous. Making distinctions like that would call for a fairly complicated, and perhaps not practical, widget.
I also worry a bit about democracy. Will those who are heavily interested in politics vote out the posters on the arts? Will we mute beginning posters’ by voting negatively on their initial efforts before they’ve had time to find a voice? Will the results be easily manipulated (such as by a single reader entering multiple times)? And (believe it or not, since this is coming from me), we might not be fair to Dave and some other posters who have won our irritation historically and whose posts at least one of us may not approach with an unbiased eye (just speaking for myself there).
Larry George says:
I like Jeff’s suggestion in #47 (and Ronit’s earlier exposition of his personal policy).
sophmom says:
Just for the record, I am grateful for the tweaking and suggestions I have received from Ronit, Ken and Dave. I am learning as I go, and I need the help.
There was one exception, and it happened before I was an author. I emailed an article to Dave that I liked and asked if he could post it. He generously obliged me, but then decided to frame it with his commentary… which amounted to a putdown of the writer of the article.
Mmmm, I think that was when I decided to learn how to author…which, come to think of it, might have been his strategy.
JG says:
I’m actually surprised we’d even need to state a policy on something that seems like basic author integrity. Formatting a photo or correcting the code for a link doesn’t change substance; it’s administrative. Adding/changing content should *never* be done without an author’s permission (unless it’s something extreme like a Board vote to remove a whole post, although I assume in such case the author would be contacted anyway).
Obviously here Jeff consented after-the-fact (and then revoked his consent and the content was quickly removed). But generally consent should be sought before content changes. I mean, what if someone posted and then wasn’t at a computer all day? The “if you object I’ll remove it” becomes pointless. If particular authors want to grant blanket permission, that’s their right. But it shouldn’t be assumed.
I’d likewise assume that nobody should be reading my draft posts, although I believe those with administrator powers theoretically have the ability to do so (I have no idea if anyone has). Again, not a policy I thought needed to be mentioned, but after this kerfuffle I’d like it known that no one has permission to read my draft posts.
kthomas says:
/-dochter
|-tochter
\-daughter
What is the ‘meaning’ within the elements of the series?
Richard Palmer says:
Hey guys. Greetings from London. I’m the royal correspondent on the Daily Express and I wrote the story about Eugenie thinking about studying at Williams College. I didn’t discover this website until after the story appeared so, please, no more accusations of stealing your scoop!
Just to let you know, Eugenie is definitely NOT coming to Williams. She has decided she is going to study at a British university.
Her mother did take a tour of your campus, as you know, and has looked at other US colleges, just as she did for her elder daughter Beatrice. But after the family thought through all the options, it’s been decided that Eugenie will study in the UK.
This has come out because Scotland Yard has begun a review of the cost of providing round-the-clock bodyguards to the young royals and Buckingham Palace wanted to halt speculation about British taxpayers having to fork out for police personal protection officers to live alongside Eugenie in the US for four years.
Cheers.
JeffZ says:
Thanks for letting us know. Bummer.
Larry George says:
Interesting. Maybe she wouldn’t have needed protection in the Purple Valley (some other celeb students have managed without it — although I think the Shah’s son had bodyguards. Could’ve saved the Brits a bundle.
I wish her well, and congratulate her on a strong academic record.