“I told my mom– this is not so bad. I’m not being shot at. My feet are not rotting off in the middle of a swamp. Life seems pretty good. I can deal with this.”

Yesterday– well this is Nashville. You’d have to go out of your way to not see the guys in uniforms and combat fatigues; to miss, the people in the room who are missing limbs,

It appears to me that alum is apprehensive about the welfare and dynamic of the purple bubble. This is more about “regular students” being affected/ impacted by another student who is a little older, perhaps a little more conservative… fear of others outside the norm entering into a well controlled academic atmosphere. It has more to do with a worry about how it may impact the current (I would say limited) demographic that goes to Williams, rather than concern for outsiders coming in. I am trying to convince everyone that their fears are not founded in reality… but that does not appear to be working.

To my knowledge, the school doesn’t have any special scholarships/financial aid targeted to particular groups of incoming students. The only named/directed aid or award I know (for frosh) is Tyng. They give out roughly 8 each year, and so far as I know they go to students that Williams is trying to woo to the school who need a lot of aid and are a big admissions “get” in some fashion. It seems lately that 1-2 have gone to Questbridge kids but otherwise I don’t know of anywhere the winners are listed. Of the few Tyngs I can think of specifically from my era at Williams, two were white females, one a white male, and another an African American male. Varied interests from sciences to polisci. Doesn’t seem that it was targeted at any particular grouping.

i’d hope that wouldn’t be much of a concern anymore, especially at williams, but you never know.

Ask all you like.

Columbia and Penn State seem to disagree: http://www.columbiaspectator.com/2009/04/30/veterans-seek-support-transition-college-life

all i’m saying is that a little preparation goes a long way in making sure williams is a good environment for non-traditional college age veterans. it wouldn’t take more than a month or two of heavy lifting (if that) to cull the best practices from other schools. I think it would be a good thing for williams to do.

and IF there’s no need for special services, then williams should figure out how to get its name out to more vets.

and IF there’s a need for special services, then williams should figure out how much it would cost and try to raise that money. i don’t think that’d be very hard, especially if they had a specific goal (perhaps 10 hours a week of additional psych services? there’s an outpatient facility in Pittsfield…maybe all williams needs is to cover van cost to and from the facility.

but it’s better to know that before enrolling them rather than after. and a link or two from the VA saying there aren’t many psych services needed isn’t going to convince me williams shouldn’t ask other colleges about their experiences first.

Pretty basic stuff folks. You are not going to have to stand up some major change in your mental health program if you happen to admit a veteran or two next year… on the off chance they have PTSD.

JG- Do I understand the Schools position? No “special” scholarship for veterans, even if Williams does not have to pay for most of it?

If that is the case, then would’nt the standard GI Bill actaully count against Veterans applying for aid?

Are there no scholarships designated for any other particular group?

The school Administration is giving away federal/ state grants for other special groups, in order not to compromise general aid? Is that true?

JG- But the school would not have to admit students, and could offer another program if it wanted. In effect, you are giving away federal grants by not supporting the program, and discouraging veterans applications. I still don’t get it.

We’re only “giving away” federal grants if we’re willing to compromise the general aid policy of the school that seems to be pretty damn important to a lot of people. Perhaps it could be done, but I’m guessing it would be an uphill battle. More power to them if they find a way to get around the “we’re need blind.” to make this exception without making it seem like that one of the focal policies of the school is BS.

As I said, if/when Williams decides formally not to participate, the school should put out a statement in support of the program generally (b/c it is great) and emphasizing that they meet demonstrated need for veterans and anyone else. Like Princeton stated in the quote above – we don’t need a Yellow Ribbon program b/c we are among the handful of schools that already does this.

For one, I’ve been repeatedly talking about combat veterans, not just veterans writ large with my concern about psych services. And I’ve not been opposed to letting them in, perhaps as early as next year, but only that williams study what it takes to successfully integrate older students with unique experiences of combat into an isolated and younger social environment. Does it take counseling support? A family center better equipped for veterans with families? I have no idea…but whatever it would take, Williams should know about beforehand, not after it becomes an issue.

The APA has said that we’re under-reporting and under-supporting military mental health needs. I don’t want williams to do that. If Williams can be confident it can support them, i’d love to see them @ williams. i think they could bring great things to the student body. I just don’t want to screw them by not being prepared for their needs as older, possibly psychologically or physically scarred individuals.

In the comparison to international students (generally a poor comparison, but fine) Williams has specific administrators in admissions who spend a large portion of their time on international admissions, i’m sure financial aid has a specialist for their unique needs, and there’s Gina Coleman who is a dean and international student advisor. Now, there are a lot more international students than potential veteran students…but clearly the institution has specific support for the one group. Shouldn’t it do right by the second group as well?

As far as having a policy not to admit Veterans because they will not “fit in”… guys, that is’nt legal.

Indeed, Princeton University will not be participating because all of its aid is need-based, and the Yellow Ribbon Program is not. “Because the Yellow Ribbon program runs counter to the benefits that we would afford to veterans who would attend Princeton and receive full support through our aid program, Princeton has opted not to participate,” Cass Cliatt, a university spokeswoman, said in an e-mail. “The key point in our consideration was that we have a financial aid program that admits students on a need-blind basis. We provide aid on the basis of need, and we meet the full assessed need of all students through a generous no-loan program in which grants don’t have to be repaid. The average grant next year is expected to be $36,000, and any veteran who applies to Princeton and is admitted would be very generously supported.”

I’d wager Williams would have a similar response b/c they don’t want to give some students disproportionately more aid than others. Now, that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t in some other way come out and say they support the program or the idea behind it or maybe create some kind of Tyng-like program…people have said the Tyng fin-aid criteria is somewhat soft, though I personally haven’t seen evidence of it. If some rich alums or parents or friends of Williams wanted to set up a “soft” criteria aimed at vets, I’m sure they could do it.

For the record, I have no doubt that vets could/would/do succeed and be/are happy at Williams if they decide(d) that a small, isolated college with limited social life is/was a good fit (still can’t figure how I made that choice and at 23 doubt I would have, but it worked out!). I have no doubt that Williams would see their experience in the military as valuable leadership experience and/or some other kind of “plus” factor for admissions. I’d just like to point out that there aren’t that many kids in the country that can get into Williams these days. Most kids I knew who had the grades, scores, etc. to get into a school like Williams and were interested in military service went to academies or got ROTC scholarships at big schools. The already small pool of kids gets even smaller post-service, and then the portion of that small pool of applicants who would want to come to Williams is even smaller. That would be a special person who I think Williams would welcome and provide aid to the fullest extent of demonstrated need, regardless of this program.

I could easily argue that the cultural nuance and language barrier mixed with trauma would be a much greater “disqualifier”. It is a poor argument…

I am pretty sure Margie Wood (sp?) could handle a Veteran pretty easily. This is less of a specialty than someone who does not control the language or culture, but has seen similar trauma.

Again, who else do we disqualify based on “possible” background?

PTSD is not that big a specialty. Traumatic events in life happen to many people. It should not be a disqualifier any more than abuse, rape, witnessing violence, or any other traumatic event that may have happend in a persons life. Treatment for PTSD can be practiced by any good general mental health practioner.

If you had need but had to pay to go to Williams, but got offered a free ride to go to Amherst, or Harvard… you would never consider the option. Remember, a student like that will get into many prestigious institutions, and if the only thing keeping him or her from Williams is money, that is your loss.

It is about competing for a very competitive demographic of students. Veterans have been known to become Doctors, Lawyers, Senators, Presidents… It is William’s loss. You are foolish not to woo this demographic.

Again… you are arguing that a 23 year old will lack some capacity, or ability, or have some “special need” beyond that of a 17 year old because they have seen combat. That they are not going to “fit in” to a place they choose. It is not a valid argument.

But I do think it is a valid concern as to how, say, a 23 year old combat veteran frosh (or for that matter, any 23 year old) would fit in with an insular, small community where virtually every other frosh is 17/18, and where there are hardly any young, single people living off campus. The age factor, as DK even recognizes, is my primary concern in fact. If someone did a very short tour of duty and way, say, 19, I’d have a lot less concern. In all events, I still think a program like this is worth trying (as I said above) once resources are less crunched, and if there ended up being some social-mixing problems (which, come on PTC, of course is a legitimate concern), it could always be tweaked. And presumably the subset of slightly older combat vets who would want the sort of social experience offered by Williams would be very small and self-selecting to begin with, which might end up being a mitigating factor.

i’m saying that williams needs to be capable to properly support them, not vice versa.

and it had absolutely nothing to do with diversity–in fact, it was the lack of diverse options for the veteran (does a 25 year old combat vet really want to hang out with 20 year old college students?) that worried me.

These men and women are very capable. If they can get into Williams on their merits, then chances are they are more than equipped to handle the social situation… they would also be able to choose a wide variety of other institutions if they did not believe Williams was right for them. Veterans are value added to any academic setting. They are value added to academic discourse. Believe it or not, Ivy league schools admit all kinds of service members.

Harvard admits multiple Veterans to the Kennedy school, every year… as does Yale, Princeton, MIT… where do you think these folks go to grad school for law, MD, Eng, etc etc etc etc… many of these people are still in service. The military pays for their education while they receive military pay in return for service obligations for rank and special programs. IT IS VERY COMMON FOLKS. Engineers go to MIT all the time. Pilots, Astronauts, Rangers, SEALs… all branches in every discipline attend our most elite universities, OFTEN.

No offense, but you guys need to get out more!

Re: trading kids: I absolutely love having my son home, and I am mostly kidding, of course, but it has occurred to me, that in this economic climate, there might be something to the idea of a summer exchange program, whereby internships (along with room and board) might be more easily provided through the respective careers of parents. For example, what I do for a living is not a direction my son is interested in going, but it would be to another Williams student.

But, then, I would miss having my son home and that time with family is important.

Anyway, excuse the off, off-topic comment…back to the first hijack!