goalposts move by kane
bad writing technique to use
enroll in wick’s class!

Agreed! The issues are a) What sort of licensing requirements are in place with regard to these and other fields; b) Why do we have these requirements? and c) Should we continue to have them?

It might be that all is for the best in this, the best of all possible worlds, but I doubt it.

Assume, for a moment, that the Massachusetts were considering a new law that required all (new) nurses to have 8 college credits in psychology and 8 in sociology. Given that these fields are “central to the nursing profession,” wouldn’t that obviously be a good thing?

I have my doubts . . .

Ronit: No one argues that “clear thinking” is a bad thing. The issue is: Why does society have certain requirements for, say, being a nurse and would a different set of requirements be better?

A naive person thinks that the current requirements are perfect, being designed by some impartial technocrats. In fact, that is not how the world works . . .

If clear writing is so important, why not require 2 classes instead of 1, or perhaps 4 classes? Why not require prospective nurses to get a Masters in clear writing?

Clear writing reflects and engenders clear thinking. Needless to say, clear, precise thinking, and mature communication skills are important to nursing.

I strongly agree with this. The ability to organize one’s thoughts clearly, and communicate them to others, is important in damn near every skilled profession.

I have to get to bed early because tomorrow, I have a midnight class.

OK. I am not teaching/providing a bachelor’s degree. I am, by design, teaching College Writing I. As noted, I want people to use writing to think clearly. I want them to write a successful job letter. I want them to be able to evaluate good medical care for their children. I want them to be able to write a credible threat to their landlord or the cell phone company that has overbilled them. I have this crazy idea that if I can help to think a little more clearly and to be able to make a credible argument for what they want in their lives. If that’s college, fine.

Anyone who thinks the skills I teach are effete or unrelated to the lives these students might lead has not read the exams to be, say, a utility lineworker or a firefighter or a healthcare MRI operator.

Most first responders are community college student. Everyone you meet in healthcare except the doctors probably trained at a community college. I think we want these people to be able to articulate and analyze problems of some complexity. A whole BA? I have no idea. I have faith that my students can figure that out for themselves.

Many comments here imply that classes like mine offer a ticket some unrealistic dream.

The Great College Hoax
Kathy Kristof, 01.14.09, 06:00 PM EST
Forbes Magazine dated February 02, 2009

…

Lacking honest input, three-quarters of high schoolers still seek to go on to college, many deluded about the financial prospects it holds, says American Institutes for Research’s Schneider. “Part of the drive is the idea it pays,” he says. “We need somebody making more realistic statements about the risks.”

The risks are hefty. Half of students entering college never earn a degree. Six in ten African-Americans depart without one. “Hundreds of thousands of young people leave our higher education system unsuccessfully, burdened with large student loans that must be repaid, but without the benefit of the wages a college degree provides,” warned a 2004 Education Trust study.

Among the half of entering students fortunate enough to get through college, millions go into debt for two-year associate degrees. These alumni outearn high school grads by only $8,400 a year. (Community colleges currently enroll 11.5 million.)

Tracy Kratzer, 27, enrolled in the International Academy of Design & Technology in Orlando, Fla. in 2003. With visions of making big bucks as a Web designer, she didn’t give much thought to the interest rate on her loan from Sallie Mae (nyse: SLM – news – people ), the Fannie Mae (nyse: FNM – news – people ) of student lending. Kratzer didn’t know it at the time, but she was part of an experiment that has proved disastrous for borrowers and shareholders of Sallie’s parent, SLM Corp. It’s called “nontraditional” lending.

“That’s not a sociological term,” Albert Lord, chief executive of SLM Corp., told an audience of financial analysts last fall. “It’s basically kids and parents with poor credit who are at the wrong schools.”

Read the whole thing.

Is “hoax” a more polite word than “scam” or do you not view Forbes magazine as a credible news outlet?

Regarding your first point in #19, I think it may also be very true for 4-year schools and Executive MBA programs that they don’t give out sufficient information about the liklihood that their degree really will turns one’s dreams into reality, but I don’t think you can include Community Colleges in that criticism. In fact, I think CCs are the antidote to the other issues.

In #5, you write:

Want to really understand community colleges in America? Start here

The Atlantic article you link to is a compelling first-person account, but as evidence, it’s mere annecdote. Today’s NYT article presents an equally compelling article with more annecdotal evidence that simply runs counter to the Atlantic piece. Moreover, Wick’s own first-person articles in Inside Higher Ed also provide an alternative viewpoint to your selection.

In #2 you write:

It would nice to see a little truth in advertising. How many of the students that were in Wick’s class ten years ago had similar dreams? How many achieved them?

Mr. Chin, who took the midnight class because other writing classes were full, wants to become a surgical nurse. At 57, he has three small children and has not been a student since graduating from high school.

Here is the BHCC Fact Book. It has quite a bit of statistical information. Most of it is regarding enrollment rather than employment, but on page 37 it provides some employment statistics regarding one section of its Nursing Program.

Now let’s look more closely at Mr. Chin’s situation. The requirements for the BHCC Nursing Program include 16 required courses for 69 credit hours, after which one is considered qualified to be hired as a Nurse. At most, five of the courses totaling 15 credit hours could be considered unnecessary to preparing one to be a Nurse: 2 courses in college-level writing, Quantitative Thought, Priciples of Psychology, and Principles of Sociology. Tuition is $116/hr, so tuition for the full degree is $8,004 (less any financial aid and tax benefits Mr. chin might qualify for). Eliminating the 5 courses could save a maximum of $1,740. Not immaterial, but nowhere near anything I would call a “scam.”

So what about the “Truth in Advertising” concern? Namely, what are Mr. Chin’s chances of landing a job in Nursing? I’d say pretty good, assuming he can complete the program.

So from what I can see, it looks like CCs are doing a good job in providing relevant education at a very fair price.

You offered in #19 to provide some analysis of census data. Personally, I would be very interested to see how your statistical analysis would line up with the Atlantic and NYT articles.

As far as David’s comments go… uh… err… learning how to write well and think critically is important for everyone.

I think I understand more about Davids feelings towards education now though… and why he defends Willaims’ neglect of the local high school…

Some folks beleive that not everyone should learn as much as possible in life… I never have understood those folks line of reasoning. Life is about learning. It is odd that a person who supports the goals of enhanced and free dialogue as expressed in this blog would not support others efforts to excel in writing. Of course… there is always money. All about the money.

JeffZ-san,

A temperate outlook to contrast with bombast may be more in the spirit of haiku.

Rory: a warm glass,
please. my friend, in a silence
against clanging words.

(added later using the brush setting on his Mac-san)

Old Basho has forgotten to include the word so necessary to complete the 17 moras.

Old Bashu lives far from the maddening city and perhaps becomes careless without stress.

He begs readers forgiveness at his carelessness and returns to his seat by the fire.

the price is wrong bitch
vicarious makes a claim
i am the poem

Tilling the field:
the man who asked the way
has disappeared
Basho, (1644 – 1694

Husking rice, 
a child squints up 
to view the moon. 
Buson, (1716 – 1783)

An exhausted sparrow
in the midst
of a crowd of children.
Issa, (1763 – 1827)

A hundred labourers
digging earth:
the long day.
Shiki, (1869 – 1902)

And no, I actually don’t have a problem with people taking a writing class before having a job that requires reading and understanding instructions, as well as having to write and pass on instructions. Sorry. That seems pretty basic. Reading Whitman or Shakespeare or whomever expands comprehension and the ability to analyze information and express complex thought. What about that is anathema to being a nurse? Your comment implies that you think it is a job that doesn’t require analysis and comprehension, I would think your wife (doctor, right?) might disagree.

And as for those Williams kids who decide not to be doctors after taking Bio 101 – that doesn’t mean they should go to an “easier” school. It means they had to figure out ultimately what they wanted to do/be. None of that means Williams was too hard for them, it means maybe they weren’t cut out to be doctors, so what?

david–lightened up at least re: things like a haiku. a smiley face (as corny as they are) can help make clear a joke or a serious statement. If you’re seriously chastising vicarious, well, you’re no fun.

to serious conversations (kinda):
“How many of those students would have been better off at a less competitive school than Williams? How many got in because of admissions preferences of various sorts?”

I’ll abstain from elongating this thread any further except to say that this theory, while seemingly very compelling, is far from a proven empirical reality (and has been shown to be highly dubious when tested), anecdotes about williams football players notwithstanding. :P

words spring to my mind
of the way, the path taken
not destination

;-)

@Dick Swart:

ultimate challenge
comments, only in haiku
thoughts few and lovely

http://www.cgcc.cc.or.us/Academics/WindTechnologyPage.cfm

Don’t you get the feeling that there is significant change happening?

Not really. Newspapers are infamous for writing “trend” stories without any meaningful evidence for the trend in question. I am happy to believe that community college enrollments may be up this year. Perhaps they are always up during recessions. Perhaps this just reflects a move from more expensive state schools, and the total number of students in school is the same. (Here is some data, for those interested in diving in. I’ll start providing some R code for those interested!)

I have two central points.

First, I do not think that schools/society provide enough accurate data to prospective students about what past students have gone on to do. Part of the reason is that this is difficult to do. Part of the reason is laziness. Part of the reason is the knowledge that the results would be quite ugly. How many of the graduates from BHCC have gone on to be doctors, homicide detectives and state troopers? Prospective students deserve to know this. I think that schools/society don’t give a very accurate picture.

Second, I think that parts of society use educational credentialism to an excessive extent. Part of this is a good-faith belief that reading Whitman makes one a better nurse. Part of it is guild-like protections that keep incumbent salaries high. Part of it is implicit collusion with the educational/industrial complex.

I think that if we a) Gave students full information and b) Removed restrictions and replaced them with civil service-like tests, available to all, then many fewer students would take English with Wick.

I really don’t have a problem with your opinions. And I apologize if it came off that way, it’s just that the last conversation we had about Wick’s midnight class started off very similarly to this one.

But rather than criticize your opinions on community college, let me ask you this: Don’t you get the feeling that there is significant change happening?

For example the boom in community college applicants:

Similar booms have forced many of the nation’s 1,200 community colleges to add makeshift parking lots, rent extra space and keep thousands of students on waiting lists this fall. While Bunker Hill offers two midnight classes — the other is Psychology 101 — and Clackamas Community College in Oregon holds welding classes until 2 a.m., others have added classes as early as 6 a.m. to make room for the jobless and others whom the recession has nudged back to school.

The deluge also includes an unusually large number of recent high school graduates, diverted from more expensive four-year colleges by the economic downturn.

I think in a funny way, some of your beefs are being addressed with this boom.

Jeff writes:

How many hours have you “wasted” on Ephblog, DK, bitching about certain college policies, with no tangible results nor any substantial likelihood for such results to materialize?

Lots! But I am under no delusions as to the likely outcome. I write/bitch because I like to and because my dad likes to read it.

Judging by that metric, I’d say these folks are spending their time quite wisely.

But do they know that? This is the other depressing aspect of the article, and one that, I admit, we did discuss the last time around.

BHCC should make public the outcomes of its students. Ten years ago, it enrolled 1,000 (or whatever) students in introductory English. (Alas, not all were lucky enough to have Wick as their teacher.) How many graduated? How many successfully transferred their credits to other schools? How much student debt did they graduate with? (I think that BHCC does very well on the debt metric.)

I know what blogging gets for me. Do these students know what attending BHCC does for them? I have my doubts.

They include a taxi dispatcher who dreams of going to medical school, a Dunkin’ Donuts cashier who wants to be a homicide detective and a landscaper who wants to be a state trooper.

Nothing wrong with dreams. When I was 17, I dreamed of playing for the US national soccer team. (Not kidding.) Alas, that was a ludicrous dream. And, if I had been better informed about my soccer ability relative to my peer group, then I would have realized that then.

But, fortunately, that ignorance did not hurt me. Will the (similar?) ignorance of these students about the likely odds hurt them? Tough to tell. But they are unlikely to have as much of a margin for error as the typical Williams grad.

How many students who started their educational careers in Wick’s class went on to medical school? Don’t those students deserve accurate information as they plan out their lives?

I see that the comments are roiling along. In David’s defense, I read his new tack of thoughtful and measured and researched as applying to posts.

I supposed that in the spirit of give-and-take in the comments, he might spew the Vesuvian vapours for which he is noted.

Those who choose to enter into the discourse do so at their own risks and are fully informed aforehand of the dangers involved with the fumaroles of volcano activity.

Hey, JG. I enjoyed Viva’s reading at Powell’s. There’s a post up somewhere down below. I had a nice note from her in response.

It is funny. People use to complain that I would do a post like this and insert my comments in the body of the post. Why don’t you, they said, just do a straight-forward post without all your crazy ideas? A reasonable point! But now people complain when I put my ideas in the comment thread!

I think that the problem before was not so much with where I put my (unusual) opinions but with the opinions themselves . . .

Jr. Mom claims that this is the “same discussion over and over.” How so? My main point in this thread — and I have only had to repeat it twice so far! — is that it is depressing to see that a hard-working fellow like Chin has no choice but to study Whitman if he wants to be a nurse because of the rules/regulations of the medical/industrial/educational complex.

Do my critics actually disagree with this? Would they care to defend the current system? Or would they prefer to bath in a stew of pleasing Stand and Deliver images of Wick as Whitman with his barbaric Yawp?

I never want to see you say you suck at haiku ever again!

Your deja vu haiku in comment #4 is outstanding! Well done, sir.