Sat 21 Nov 2009
On Responsibility, Speech and Censorship
Posted by kthomas under Miscellaneous, Race, Williams Conversation at 12:00 pm
(promoted from this discussion)
When Pastor Niemoeller was sent to the concentration camps, we wrote 1937; when the concentration camps were opened, we wrote 1933, and the people who were sent to the concentration camps then, were “Communists.”
Who cared for them? We knew about it– it was printed in the papers. Who raised their voice in response– as the Church of Witness? We thought then: Communists, those opponents of religion, those enemies of Christians.
‘Shall I be my brother’s keeper?’
Then they took the sick, the so-called incurables.
I remember a conversation with a man, who had taken up the Pretension, of being a Christian. He told me: “Perhaps it is the right thing. These unhealable people cost the country money, they are only a burden to themselves and to others. Isn’t it the best for all involved, when one casts them out of the Middle?”
Only then did the Church as such come to the matter. Then we spoke of things in strong tones, until such voices were again cut off and suppressed in public.
Can we say, we were not responsible?
The persecution of the Jews, the manner and way, which we treated the occupied lands, or the things which happened in Greece, in Poland, in Czechoslovakia or in the Netherlands, that were openly reported in our newspapers…
I believe, we Witnessing-Churchgoing-Christians, have every reason, to declare: ‘My Responsibility! Mea Culpa!‘ We cannot talk our way out of things, with the excuse, “it could have cost me my head, if I had said anything.”
It pleased us more, not to speak. ‘Without Responsibility’– that we are certainly not, and I keep asking myself, what would have come to pass, when in 1933 or in 1934– there must then have been some Possibility– if fourteen thousand evangelical Pastors, and every evangelical community that there was in Germany, had defended the Truth until death?
If we had said then, when Hermann Goering easily threw 100,000 communists into the concentration camps, in order to let them die– “it is not right!”
I can imagine, that in that case perhaps 30 to 40 thousand evangelical Christians would have lost their heads, but I can also imagine, that we would have saved the lives of 30 to 40 million people– for that is the price we have paid, today.
–Martin Niemoeller, remarks, 6th January 1946 (my translation)
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33 Responses to “On Responsibility, Speech and Censorship”
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ephling says:
Wow finally a discussion about Pelosi’s heathcare system. Let the government decide who lives and who dies. The rest of us will bear silent witness to the power of the state for speaking out will not be tolerated.
kthomas says:
@ephling: Well, I certainly meant posting this as metaphorical to a number of issues and debates, but did not anticipate your particular topic nor, shall we say, the volume and intensity of your response.
As much as I simply dislike US politicians and the state of politics in the US– that’s for Americans to take the responsibility to do something about– I wonder if things are quite as bad, or as potentially bad, as you claim.
I was somewhat annoyed by a group in Philadelphia that got itself arrested recently– as if getting arrested, in itself, was a medal of honor to be pursued for itself, and as if getting arrested got, in itself, something done.
They did have an interesting point, however– the US already has death committees. They’re sitting in every insurance company building in the United States.
Dick Swart says:
@kthomas:
Ken.
I take the liberty of promoting my comment under the previous discussion. I think it germane to your major point and is a thought to ponder as you posit, when discussing to whom should medals be awarded and is all fame equal.
kthomas says:
Dick: If I may then as well:
http://www.youtube.com/v/cthEUzxidb8&hl=en_US&fs=1
(I haven’t found much time to translate some of this and the other speeches)
The left column, though brief, is representative. I found it hard to find anyone who seemed to like Merkel, for whatever that is worth. I will certainly not repeat some of the accusations that go around about Merkel– but a hard look at the political economy, as in most nations, is in order.
Germans, of course, often laugh at the thought that the United States calls itself a nation– certainly not in the German sense of the term. (At this point in the conversation with a German, I look to the ceiling, scratch my whiskers and mumble something like ‘Na, dieser alter, sehr gefahrlicher Begriff von Nationalismus.’ It takes a little care to pronounce the ‘t’ as if it were a ‘z’ in German.)
I was also, last week, somewhat surprised when a member of the left, in Rhinelander dialect, explained to me what I took to mean that two individuals has been shot by the Welfare service this year. After all, it would make perfect sense in the US– but I blinked at her a few times. (Oh! That’s how they say starb around here!).
I tried not to laugh in her face, that two people, in all of Germany, starved to death last year– and that the number, is a matter of national concern.
kthomas says:
And:
http://www.ethanzuckerman.com/blog/2009/11/09/why-we-fall-for-fast-news/
I would swear that Ethan is visible about :46 seconds into Greenpeace’s promo video from the 10th in Berlin, but evidently not. His idea of a dangerous feedback loop between online media and audience, however…
PTC says:
kt- This brought back memories of my trip to Dachau. It is something to see, just how murderous the Germans became in the 30s and 40s. That can happen anywhere if people let it.
Ephling- You sound like an extremist with that kind of rhetoric. Using the holocaust as a metaphor for government run/supervised health care? Shame on you mate. You too, should visit Dachau.
kthomas says:
PTC: Earlier in the day on the 9th, someone surprised former Prime Minister Jansa with a question– I believe I have the question, and his response, recorded, but as “slow news” goes, I’ll “have to find the section of my tapes.”
He discussed the issue at some length. 11 July 1995, after all, was the last time mass murder occurred on European soil– and we still have no institutions in place, to prevent it.
“The way the UN works, is that you declare a war, and then you declare a cease-fire, and then the UN sends troops.”
“There are those who want to say the past is the past and that we should forget and look to the future. But I believe that Europe must look back to this event, and ask why and how…”
Surely I am misquoting and re-framing my source,– however.
ephling says:
Been there, and Vietnam, and to the Middle East where the centuries old hatred on both sides is as fresh as can be. People never change. WWII …sat with my father for a month while he died from complications from a bi-lateral amputation, a result of wounds suffered long ago when he sacrificed 6 years of his youth in the noblest of causes. Just he and I, no one came to say thanks for what he did. If the post was looking for guilt, sorry but my family did its fair share. I disapprove of broad brush efforts that seek to diminish the heroic contributions of a great number of brave men. I suggest you visit the WWII Memorial in Washington DC.
frank uible says:
All of the human race is flawed, the vast majority weak and afraid, most greedy, some corrupt, a few evil. The best I can do is to try to be a little less of each of these today than I was yesterday.
Derek says:
Ephling –
To be ignorant of one’s ignorance is the malady of the ignorant. Stop while you’re well behind.
dcat
ephling says:
In no particular order. The murder of the so-called incurables took place in 1939 and was not aimed at Jews and is considered by none to be part of the Holocaust. I did not compare health care to the Holocaust, I compared it to the state deciding who lives and who dies. Second you smug knuckle head blaming Christians for the Holocaust is boring, tiring, stupid, and just plain wrong. The vast majority of allied soldiers in WWII were of that religion to seem to dislike so intensely. Bigot.
Derek says:
Ephling –
To whom are you addressing that little tirade?
In what way, other than with capital punishment, does the state decide who lives or who dies? What does this have to do with the current health care plans? Cite specifics, please.
Oh: and the murder of the incurables is considered “by none” part of the Holocaust and was limited to 1939? Really? Wanna play with historiographical fire, Scarecrow? I’m gonna start with Michael Burleigh and Omer Bartov, both of whom disagree. I’ll happily go check out my copies of works by literally dozens of others. Ball’s in your possession, playa. Take your shot.
dcat
kthomas says:
Gentlemen, Gentlemen–
No need to prove the historical point by replaying the scenes.
No one is “blaming Christians,” and this discussion is perhaps better continued after a pause for reflection.
About page 50 (before and after a bit) in Bartov, should do.
PTC says:
ephling… uh… ok, so stop comparing health care reform to genocide then. Call it a SNAFU and dumb comment and drive the hell on there Ranger.
I can understand wanting to stop a big program… I can understand that big gov wastes a lot of hard earned money… but please, don’t justify such nonsense off of the sacrifices of your ancestors, or even yourself. A lot of folks have members of their family who fought in wars…
Do you really believe that government run health care equals mass murder? I mean… really?
Post something that makes sense if you care so much about it.
Ronit says:
I’m just honored that Glenn Beck comes by to comment on Ephblog.
ephling says:
Not sure why we are playing this game. I did not use the Holocaust as a metephor for state run health care.
Front page United States Holocaust Memorial Museum
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005143
The Holocaust was the systematic, bureaucratic, state-sponsored persecution and murder of approximately six million Jews by the Nazi regime and its collaborators. “Holocaust” is a word of Greek origin meaning “sacrifice by fire.” The Nazis, who came to power in Germany in January 1933, believed that Germans were “racially superior” and that the Jews, deemed “inferior,” were an alien threat to the so-called German racial community.
During the era of the Holocaust, German authorities also targeted other groups because of their perceived “racial inferiority”: Roma (Gypsies), the disabled, and some of the Slavic peoples (Poles, Russians, and others). Other groups were persecuted on political, ideological, and behavioral grounds, among them Communists, Socialists, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and homosexuals.
Derek says:
Ephling –
You simply don’t know what you’re talking about. You did make the comparison. The Holocaust was the killing of the Jews but not ONLY the killing of the Jews. I have no idea why you need all of the other verbiage (using definitions is freshman essay trite) except that it is clear that you went to a weebsite to try to cover your ass. There are people here who quite clearly know a lot more about this topic than you do. Your jejune citations of front pages of websites isn’t as impressive as you think it is, because you have no idea just how much you don’t know.
Your comments about health care are idiotic on their face. But then when you write:
“Wow finally a discussion about Pelosi’s heathcare system. Let the government decide who lives and who dies. The rest of us will bear silent witness to the power of the state for speaking out will not be tolerated.”
as tyhe first comment in direct response to a post explicitly about the Holocaust, well, you invite the ire of those of us who see the anlogy for what it is.
YOU asserted: “The murder of the so-called incurables took place in 1939 and was not aimed at Jews and is considered by none to be part of the Holocaust.” That is completely wrong. And I can bury you in citations if you want. I also participated in a seminar on holocaust and genocide studies at the Holocaust Museum in January and can assure you whose side of this debate they would take.
Keep digging.
dcat
kthomas says:
Ephling,
My apologizes for my classmates’s manners. I don’t know what’s come over him. The chip seems to keep falling off his shoulder. I do, however, after sleeping on it, see your point.
Derek,
Congratulations on joining David in a competition for chief ass of ephBlog. (“Look, I can bury the newcomer in … citations!”) It is a very, very small (negative) hill to climb but you’ve done it.
John Smith says:
WARNING: THE FOLLOWING COMMENT ATTACKS A RELIGIOUS GROUP
WARNING: THE FOLLOWING COMMENT ATTACKS A RELIGIOUS GROUP
WARNING: THE FOLLOWING COMMENT ATTACKS A RELIGIOUS GROUP
It is an insult to memorialize the handful of anti-societal trouble-seeking JWs alongside the SIX MILLION Jewish Holocaust victims given that Jehovah’s Witnesses view the Jews much as did the Nazis.
The WatchTower Cult teaches its own version of “replacement theology”, which says that GOD rejected the Jews as His “chosen people”, and replaced them with today’s “Jehovah’s Witnesses”. In fact, the title “Jehovah’s Witnesses” was originally applied to the Jews by the Prophet Isaiah, and is even quoted on the wall at the entrance to the Holocaust Museum in Washington D.C. The WatchTower Society, in calling its own members “Jehovah’s Witnesses” is attempting to steal that designation away from the Jews. The WatchTower Cult even teaches that all of the Bible’s promises of restoration for the Jewish people now belongs to the followers of the Cult.
There were only approximately 6000 Jehovah’s Witnesses in Germany during the 1930s-40s. While many of those 6000 German JWs were repeatedly arrested during the 1930s and 1940s, only a fraction were jailed or imprisoned for any significant length of time. Only about 200-300 German JWs lost their lives, and the majority of those died from any number of causes other than having been executed. Approximately 1000 JWs from other European countries lost their lives while incarcerated by the Nazis.
During that same time period, there were more Jehovah’s Witnesses arrested and jailed in the United States than in Germany. In fact, from 1941 until 1945, approximately 4500 American Jehovah’s Witnesses “elected” to go to prison rather than serve in the U.S. Military and go fight against those same Nazis who were committing those atrocities. Approximately 3000 of those 4500 American JWs were even offered “conscientious objector” status, in which they were offered “non-combatant” work as a substitute, but 99% of those JWs refused to even help that much.
COMMENT MODIFIED BY POST AUTHOR PENDING FURTHER REVIEWS
rory says:
for a blog from an elite SLAC, the comments on this thread are rather…disappointing, aside from ken and dick and frank’s efforts.
Derek says:
Wait a second. What the hell have I done wrong? I have not “buried” anyone in citations. We have someone denying tht the “incurables” were part of the Holocaust, while comparing healkth care to the holocaust, then after having it pointed out to them that they were wrong, and they insist on reiterating their point, I gave more evidence. Seriously — what the hell?
dcat
Alexander Woo says:
The culture shock of “Minnesota nice” hasn’t changed me much, but I now realize how unusual the academic cultural practice of respecting your opponents by arguing with them is and how often I practice it without notice.
Ronit says:
@Derek: I’m not sure what’s going on here either, or why anyone has bothered to engage seriously with a troll whose first response to a post about the Holocaust is to compare healthcare reform to it.
Ken Thomas '93 says:
Hello from London all,
It’s not that I don’t enjoy this, but the sun went down before I got out of the tube (that’s sometime about 4pm here) and I can, perhaps, find … ah, well, ah…
So let’s make it quick:
1) ephling, though an occasional commentator, does not seem a random passerby or a troll. He (or she) does not deserve to be dismissed out of hand, or insulted.
2) if you read an author such as Bartov, it is clear that the events which led to the rise of the National Socialist State in Germany, and the Holocaust, included a conjunction of state-controlled health care, psychiatry/psychology, and a dismissal of the value human beings. There’s something to discuss and explore here and, ahem, there’s a difference between “health care reform” and whatever the heck is occurring in Washington.
3) (@Alex:) Getting to like Minnesota? I absolutely adore it. I’ve now spent enough time among the Vlaams, to realize that the Catholics among them are really Lutherans, at least in manners. And I suppose there are some questions that overlap, here, too.
Gosh. I was about to say, arguing is one thing, disrespect is another. Then I remembered that there is this line in one of books JeffZ mentioned, that says that insulting someone without knowing that you’re insulting them, is far worse than insulting them intentionally.
P.S. Never use “the Socratic Method” on a Lutheran woman at Williams. Really. Trust me on this one.
ephling says:
Dcat. I will make one last attempt. I did not compare health care to the Holocaust. I observed that the murder of the incurables was a frightening example of a state determining who lives and dies solely on the basis of their health and the cost of that health to the state, and yes I made the connection to the potential for abuse when any state controls health care. On that point you can be outraged, disagree, or think me an idiot as you wish. That you can not conceive that there could possibly be anyone who does not connect the murder of the incurables to the Holocaust seems to me to be prejudiced in the extreme. I told you that is not what I meant. If you will not believe the definition from the U.S. Holocaust Museum this one is from the Shoah Resource Center, The International School for Holocaust Studies at the Yad Vashem. I have been there, it is a somber and life altering experience. How arrogant of you to tell me what I think and then when I defend my position from your savage attack with the exact words from the most recognized memorials in the world you have the unmitigated gall to say they are wrong and you alone know the truth. Then to heap upon the argument that I am engaging in “denial” is shameful. You clearly have some agenda at work that eludes me. I weep for your students.
http://www1.yadvashem.org/odot_pdf/Microsoft%20Word%20-%206419.pdf
Holocaust
(in Hebrew, sho’ah), the name used in English to refer to the systematic
destruction of European Jewry at the hands of the Nazis during World War II.
The word Holocaust comes from the Greek word holokauston, which is a
translation of the Hebrew word olah. During Biblical times, an olah was a type
of sacrifice to God that was totally consumed or burnt by fire. Over time, the
word holocaust came to be used with reference to large-scale slaughter or
destruction.
The Hebrew word sho’ah, which has the connotation of a whirlwind of
destruction, was first used in 1940 to refer to the extermination of the Jews of
Europe, in a booklet published in Jerusalem by the United Aid Committee for
the Jews in Poland. The booklet was titled Sho’at Yehudei Polin (The
Holocaust of the Jews of Poland)… Although the
term is sometimes used with reference to the murder of other groups by the
Nazis, strictly speaking, those groups do not belong under the heading of the
Holocaust, nor are they included in the generally accepted statistic of six
million victims of the Holocaust.
JeffZ says:
Who let Broadband through the spam filter??
Dick Swart says:
Boy, this thread shows me how out of it I am. Where did I miss the boat, jump the track, drive past the off-ramp, or some other ‘lost while travelling’ expression?
I thought the quote from Pastor Neimoller that headed this post was a telling reference to the responsibility of organized groups to recognize and speak up sooner than later on actions and values which they see as anathma. I was thinking that the college probably rightly applies this responsibility to the awarding of the Bicentennial medals.
That is why in Neimoller’s writings, God is asking him where he was in 1933 to 1937. And the famous quote “First they came for the Communists, but …”.
Well, I am on Medicare after all, but I only had the flu shot for old guys, not the one for younger people and kids!
Responsibly yours in Hood River.
kthomas says:
I’m totally lost. Zizek’s talk is supposed to be here somewhere. Institute for Cultural Accompishment, Royal Society for the Academy, where? Am I supposed to have a ticket? Will a Slovenian passport…
Derek says:
Ken –
I went after Ephlings ideas, which were shoddy and poorly thought out.
Then you: a) called me an ass (so, wait, when did you earn the right to get to call names?) and b) accused me of burying someone with footnotes. Yet when it served your purpose, you managed to pull out and explicate Bartov, who I mentioned the first time around. I am very confused.
Ephling –
Meanwhile, you keep referring to this “definition” from the Holocaust Museum, (and refer to a “savage” attack — a little perspective, please) and yet I was part of a faculty seminar at that institution, and that definition is intended as the first, not the last word at the museum. The Holocaust Museum does not in any way deny that those non-Jews who died at the hands of the Nazis were not part of the Holocaust — indeed, that museum has exhibits on them. And the Holocaust Museum is not always the final word on these things. But most importantly: Why the hell do you get to claim the Holocaust Museum or Vad Yashem as your own?
Then you go off on this random tirade in which you think that providing another series of turgid definitions is the last word, despite the fact that myriad Holocaust scholars disagree. But if I cite those I’m burying you with footnotes. Ken has put me in a hell of a position here, because if I cite things, people who know stuff and the like, I get to look like an “ass” (because Ken is allowed to call names, you see) but if I don’t, then we let what amounts to plagiarism on top of shoddy argumentation go unchallenged.
As for my “agenda,” well, you imply one, but cannot quite explain what it is. So tell me: What “agenda” are you claiming for me? I’ll tell you — my agenda is to not ignore the hundreds of thousands of Nazi victims who don’t fit your definition. And my agenda is to continue to insist that the current health care plan does not decide who lives and who dies and to maintain that the juxtaposition with the Holocaust, and its myriad victims, is at best inapt and at worst blatantly offensive. And if you are saying there is no juxtaposition, then why was the first comment to this post yours, and why did you in your first sentence in the first comment in response to a post pretty much solely about the Holocaust write: “Wow finally a discussion about Pelosi’s heathcare system.” How the hell can you then deny making the comparison?
dcat
Ronit says:
@ephling: Elie Wiesel thinks your comparison is indecent and disgusting
jeff s says:
Are the “incurables” of our age the millions who cannot afford healthcare?
Is it okay to tolerate a system that maldistributes healthcare based upon the profit motive of doctors, hospitals and drug makers and the ablity to pay while largely disregarding efficacy and need? Because it is the invisible hand making the decision to ration care and I cannot be held responsibe, this is okay?
Lets be mindful and vigilent about past crimes and potential future abuses, but don’t bury the ethical and moral dilemmas posed by our current system (and a flawed reform package) by labeling our opponents as fascists.
Thousands of people are needlessly exposed to infections, complications and death each year because our system has perverse inentives to provide more care even when evidence based guidelines and efficacy do not support treatment.
And then lets talk about denying coverage for pre-existing conditions and ability to pay. But that is okay b/c it doesn’t happen to people who go to Williams or live in my neighborhood.
We have decades of experience in the rest of the developed world with what we mostly mislabel as socialized medicine. Surely there are better and more relevant examples that can be used than Nazi Germany? Is ephling really suggesting moral equivalency btween Pelosi and Hitler, Speer, et al?
If you can’t make an insightful comment about healthcare reform without equating the speaker of the house with the architects of the Holocaust, you are a troll.
It is offensive. And not nearly as offensive as the tone of this dscussion.
Alexander Woo says:
@kthomas – unfortunately my cultural competency is too low to have made the adjustment yet.
Let’s just say that weeks during which I don’t unintentionally insult a student are fairly unusual.
kthomas says:
Hello from Heath@Alexander Woo: Hello from Heathrow Gate … 40.
Watching the endless cultural misunderstandings between the Vlaams and the Turks is a source of equally endless amusement, if not serious thought on the parallel political questions.